[timouthy]

Hi, I subbed in a tourney today 9/1/2018 named Sky Club Jackpot $2000 #8650. I started the 5th hand of 8 total and finished the tourney. I scored a net 28.61 IMPs in my four hands, and when added to the first four hands net points, the total was 32.36 points, enough for 2nd place. After the tourney was over it said that I "withdrew" which I certainly did not. The master points were given to the player who played the first four hands and who only scored a net of ~ 3.5 IMPs!. Why is this fair? Do most/any tourney subs know that this happens with this particular tourney? It is not by any means the first time this has happened to me, just the most egregious time. I pointed out this unfairness to the tourney director named Nameste and he just blew me off.

timouthy

[barmar]

A sub only gets masterpoints if they play more boards than the original player that they replaced. If you both play the same number of boards, the original player gets the award.

We don't split the award between the original player and the sub, or use the number of matchpoints or IMPs they won on their respective boards. It's just the number of boards you each played.

[timouthy]

 barmar, on 2018-September-03, 12:28, said:

A sub only gets masterpoints if they play more boards than the original player that they replaced. If you both play the same number of boards, the original player gets the award.

We don't split the award between the original player and the sub, or use the number of matchpoints or IMPs they won on their respective boards. It's just the number of boards you each played.

So nice to finally hear the "policy". I fully expected a reply like this, with absolutely no explanation of the rationale for such a policy and that is exactly what you delivered Barmar. Here is what is wrong with this policy. Why in the world would anyone agree to sub in such a tourney knowing that this is the master point award "rule" here, especially when that is not the policy among the more legitimate tourneys like ACBLs Speedball?

Two immediate problems come to mind. First you are sending the message to any competent subs that we don't really appreciate you subbing here despite what you say. The only reason any subs come at all is because you do not post your particular rules for assigning MPs ahead of time. As soon as they learn your "rules" all the good subs will go spend their time doing anything more interesting like organizing their canned goods.

Second it invites sabotage. A reasonable person knowing your rules will (and I highly encourage all subs out there to do this), intentionally bid wildly and aggressively because there is nothing to be gained by doing well anyway. Also if you as a sub can figure out who the crappy ops are, intentionally overbid and redouble all high level contracts to pad their scores so they have a chance to win. I personally plan to do this every single time I sub in another of your tourneys until you come to your senses and use the rules the ACBL sponsored tourneys all use, which is give all MPs to whoever finishes the tourney.

sincerely, timouthy

[helene_t]

BBO and the Sky management/TD expects subs not to sub just in order to sabotage the score of the original player. Most people will do their best even if there are no dollars or masterpoints at stake, and if someone intentionally damage the score of teammates, partner, the original player and themselves, you can always ban them from the club and/or report to abuse.

I suppose one could argue that the masterpoints should go to whichever player scored the most IMPs. For matchpoint tourneys, should it then go to whoever had the most sum(MP-50%)? Or some other formula?

Or maybe split the masterpoints pro rata. But that could lead to weird situations in which the sub and the sub's partner had different optimal strategies.

There's also a case for favoring the original player because they paid the entry fee.

[sacto123]

 timouthy, on 2018-September-03, 16:46, said:

So nice to finally hear the "policy". I fully expected a reply like this, with absolutely no explanation of the rationale for such a policy and that is exactly what you delivered Barmar. Here is what is wrong with this policy. Why in the world would anyone agree to sub in such a tourney knowing that this is the master point award "rule" here, especially when that is not the policy among the more legitimate tourneys like ACBLs Speedball?

Two immediate problems come to mind. First you are sending the message to any competent subs that we don't really appreciate you subbing here despite what you say. The only reason any subs come at all is because you do not post your particular rules for assigning MPs ahead of time. As soon as they learn your "rules" all the good subs will go spend their time doing anything more interesting like organizing their canned goods.

Second it invites sabotage. A reasonable person knowing your rules will (and I highly encourage all subs out there to do this), intentionally bid wildly and aggressively because there is nothing to be gained by doing well anyway. Also if you as a sub can figure out who the crappy ops are, intentionally overbid and redouble all high level contracts to pad their scores so they have a chance to win. I personally plan to do this every single time I sub in another of your tourneys until you come to your senses and use the rules the ACBL sponsored tourneys all use, which is give all MPs to whoever finishes the tourney.

sincerely, timouthy

There are still a few of us who play bridge simply because we enjoy the game. That enough is a good reason to sub

[diana_eva]

 timouthy, on 2018-September-03, 16:46, said:

...


Why in the world would anyone agree to sub in such a tourney knowing that this is the master point award "rule" here, especially when that is not the policy among the more legitimate tourneys like ACBLs Speedball?

...

This is the policy in ACBL Speedballs too.

[diana_eva]

 sacto123, on 2018-September-03, 18:23, said:

There are still a few of us who play bridge simply because we enjoy the game. That enough is a good reason to sub

That and the expectation to play a better game in a pay tourney than in the more random freebies, subbing and completing a tourney counts for your TCR, and also the TDs in pay tourneys usually remember the faithful subs and invite them to fill in sitouts when possible.

[TrialBid]

 barmar, on 2018-September-03, 12:28, said:

A sub only gets masterpoints if they play more boards than the original player that they replaced. If you both play the same number of boards, the original player gets the award.

We don't split the award between the original player and the sub, or use the number of matchpoints or IMPs they won on their respective boards. It's just the number of boards you each played.

This is a policy I have long been aware of. However, there is "hole"--in ACBL at least--as of the last time I checked. Until the ACBL director manually marks the sub as permanent it doesn't matter how many boards the sub plays. I once came in during board 1 and when the player returned in the last round, I was shut out and the original player was given the points. Has this been fixed yet??

[barmar]

 diana_eva, on 2018-September-04, 02:50, said:

This is the policy in ACBL Speedballs too.

Yes, there's just one policy for the entire site.

[barmar]

 TrialBid, on 2018-September-04, 08:15, said:

This is a policy I have long been aware of. However, there is "hole"--in ACBL at least--as of the last time I checked. Until the ACBL director manually marks the sub as permanent it doesn't matter how many boards the sub plays. I once came in during board 1 and when the player returned in the last round, I was shut out and the original player was given the points. Has this been fixed yet??

Yeah, I forgot about that wrinkle. This policy only applies if the original player doesn't come back.

It hasn't been fixed because it's not considered a bug.

[silvr bull]

The pay tournies allow a new sub to play a few times, in hopes they will get addicted to the gambling and become pay members, but . . .

 diana_eva, on 2018-September-04, 02:52, said:

the TDs in pay tourneys usually remember the faithful subs

and treat them like useful idiots until the TDs can replace them. Frequent subs are allowed to play only until there is someone the TD likes better. Then the sub is booted and replaced, often by a player who was not even registered for the tourney when it started. The chances of a frequent sub staying to the end and winning anything are trivially small. Sub in the pay tournies if you want to play a few hands there, but do not expect anything like fair treatment by the TDs. BBO "rules" about who plays the most hands or who starts a tourney are irrelevant in the real world, and totally disregarded by the TDs. If you expect nothing in return for being a sub in a pay tourney, you can safely bet that your expectations will be fulfilled.

[timouthy]

 diana_eva, on 2018-September-04, 02:50, said:

This is the policy in ACBL Speedballs too.

With all due respect Dianaeva, you do not know what you are talking about. I offer as evidence a Speedball tourney I subbed in on 8/30/2018 #7823. I played only the last 3 hands of the 12 hand tourney and scored Master Points (and btw the last three hands' scores were what allowed us to earn the Master Points). Go and look if you still doubt it.

[TrialBid]

 barmar, on 2018-September-04, 08:44, said:

Yeah, I forgot about that wrinkle. This policy only applies if the original player doesn't come back.

It hasn't been fixed because it's not considered a bug.

Well... I offer this email reply to me from Jacki in 2014:

Quote

Jacki <jacki@bridgebase.com>
3/16/14
to Barry, Georgi, me, Uday
Hi Steve:

Thanks for letting me know about this. I have transferred .05 points from ambercat45 to trialbid. When something like this happens, please let me know and I can immediately transfer the points. As it's programmed now, if the player who started the game returns before the end the points are awarded to that person.

Our policy is to award the points to the player who played the most hands during the game unless it's a tie and they both (the original player and the sub) each play 6 hands. In that case, the points are awarded to the original player. In this case there was no doubt as to who played the most hands.

I'm copying our programmers on this to see if they can make it automatic to award the points to the player playing the majority of the boards. In the meantime, it's no trouble to transfer the points 'by hand' so to speak.

Best,

Jacki

Does that not count as a client reporting a bug? Methinks it just fell through the cracks.

[diana_eva]

 timouthy, on 2018-September-04, 09:32, said:

With all due respect Dianaeva, you do not know what you are talking about. I offer as evidence a Speedball tourney I subbed in on 8/30/2018 #7823. I played only the last 3 hands of the 12 hand tourney and scored Master Points (and btw the last three hands' scores were what allowed us to earn the Master Points). Go and look if you still doubt it.

It's nice to be treated with all due respect

I suspect the TD put you in as a permanent sub in that tourney and that's why you got to keep the points.

The policy is the same, in fact it started with the ACBL speedballs and only later was adopted by other pay tournaments.

[timouthy]

 diana_eva, on 2018-September-04, 15:56, said:

It's nice to be treated with all due respect

I suspect the TD put you in as a permanent sub in that tourney and that's why you got to keep the points.

The policy is the same, in fact it started with the ACBL speedballs and only later was adopted by other pay tournaments.

You cannot have it both ways. Sky Club tourneys do not give a sub master points unless they start before the halfway point and Speedball tourneys do...... period. You seem to be trying to make it sound like a sub being made permanent is a rare exception in Speedball but it is not. I have scored master points many times as a sub and not just in Speedball tourneys.

[hrothgar]

 timouthy, on 2018-September-04, 17:06, said:

You cannot have it both ways. Sky Club tourneys do not give a sub master points unless they start before the halfway point and Speedball tourneys do...... period. You seem to be trying to make it sound like a sub being made permanent is a rare exception in Speedball but it is not. I have scored master points many times as a sub and not just in Speedball tourneys.

I am having enormous difficulty understanding why I should care about you or your opinions.

If you're happy playing in the tournaments, do so.
If you're not happy, than don't

Either way, stop the damn whining.
Seriously, watching you obsess over something as meaningless as BBO masterpoints is just sad.

As for your suggestion that you and other should sub in to tournaments in order to sabotage them...
Its really stupid to advertizing this sort of thing in advance, especially when you are threatening people who can perma-ban your sorry little ass.

[bixby]

The answer to this complaint, like the answer to pretty much all complaints about masterpoint awards, is to repeat to yourself every morning and evening the following mantra: "Masterpoints do not matter. Masterpoints are not the goal. Masterpoints are an illusion. The goal is to have fun and become a better bridge player."

[aawk]

Hope these 10 bridge commandments will help you to let your frustrations go.


#1 You shall have no other masterpoints before Me.

#2 You shall not make for yourself Masterpoints - any likeness of anything that is in bridge heaven above, or that is in the BBO bridge beneath, or that is in the water under the BBO bridge; you shall not bow down to Masterpoints nor serve them . . ..

#3 You shall not take the name of the Masterpoints in vain, for the Masterpoints will not hold him guiltless who takes Their name in vain.

#4 Remember the Bridge day, to keep it holy . . .

#5 Honor your fathers and your mothers Masterpoints . . .

#6 You shall not murder Masterpoints.

#7 You shall not commit Masterpoints adultery.

#8 You shall not steal Masterpoints.

#9 You shall not bear false Masterpoints against your neighbour.

#10 You shall not covet your Opponents Masterpoints . . . your wife's Masterpoints . . . nor anything that are not BBO Masterpoints.

[barmar]

BTW, we should stop calling these Masterpoints. Apparently ACBL has trademarked that, so the term should only be used for the ones they award. In non-ACBL tourneys they're BBO points.

I know, I made the mistake earlier, old habit.

[j_with_a_B]

 timouthy, on 2018-September-03, 16:46, said:

Second it invites sabotage. A reasonable person knowing your rules will (and I highly encourage all subs out there to do this), intentionally bid wildly and aggressively because there is nothing to be gained by doing well anyway. Also if you as a sub can figure out who the crappy ops are, intentionally overbid and redouble all high level contracts to pad their scores so they have a chance to win. I personally plan to do this every single time I sub in another of your tourneys until you come to your senses and use the rules the ACBL sponsored tourneys all use, which is give all MPs to whoever finishes the tourney.

sincerely, timouthy

Such vandalistic players like this are, thankfully, few but often seen. My policy is to keep notes on such players and blacklist them so they cannot join my tourneys, to begin with. Unfortunately, for reasons I do not know, BBO will still allow them to sub. I have to watch for them and replace them as soon as I can when they sub in. A player that intentionally comes to spoil a tourney for others is guilty of rudeness that should see them banned from the site. A four-year-old having a hissy fit tantruming on the floor while holding his breath kicking and screaming will eventually come out of it. It would be a great help to all TD's that if players are on the "Ignore" list of the host and they are excluded from a tourney that they ALSO be unable to sub in the same tourney. Then, when there is the ongoing sub shortage they would not be able to sabotage during the time it takes for a sub to become available.

On a related topic, and perhaps not appropriate here, it would be a wonderful blessing to all TD's if robots could be made available as a last resort to use as subs. With the recent additions of so many automated and robot tourneys and various ways to play solitaire the previously usually abundant sub-pool has greatly diminished. Players short of time but with enough available to play a few hands used to look for games to sub in. Now there are so many options for them to play in instead that we often run short of subs. In the last year or so I have had to cancel far more tourneys than I ever did in the ten years before that due to the chronic sub shortage, especially early in the tourney. (When it occurs in the final round many tables get ended with Ave ++ just to clear the table.) Having robots available to sub would be a cure to that ongoing problem.

John j_with_a_B