Help
Partner open 1 club.
You have:♣AQ843♦Q65♥AJ5♠A4
Is it correct to think a slam visual ?
How to bid usually and in 2/1 system
Page 1 of 1
- You cannot start a new topic
Add Reply
how to bid
MultiQuote
#2
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 2,103
- Joined: 2009-May-03
- Gender:Male
- Location:Kent (Near London)
Posted 2018-October-01, 07:04
cencio, on 2018-October-01, 06:24, said:
Partner open 1 club.
You have:♣AQ843♦Q65♥AJ5♠A4
Is it correct to think a slam visual ?
How to bid usually and in 2/1 system
You have:♣AQ843♦Q65♥AJ5♠A4
Is it correct to think a slam visual ?
How to bid usually and in 2/1 system
You have a balanced 17 count and you can probably add a bit for the nice five-card suit and the three aces - so it is reasonable to value the hand as an 18-count. In the 2/1 system the 1♣ opening is often a balanced hand too weak to open 1NT ( so 12-14 typically). A balanced 18 opposite 14 is still only 32 points and is probably a little short of slam values.
The second possibility is that partner has an unbalanced hand, in which case the club suit is genuine. Now slam is looking like a real possibility.
If you play inverted minor suit raises, a two club bid will help you find out more about partner's hand to understand which hand-type partner holds. If you don't yet play inverted minor suit raises you have an awkward response and I would choose 1♦ as a waiting bid.
#3
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 13,025
- Joined: 2005-June-15
- Gender:Male
- Location:Canada
- Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.
Posted 2018-October-01, 10:03
It is customary to list the suits in the order spades, hearts, diamonds, clubs, and most (me!) find it easier to read that way...thus I had to read twice to see that I didn't have AQxxx in spades.
As for thinking about a slam...well, it is a good idea to hope that we may be exploring slam if partner shows signs of interest, but a very bad mistake to assume that this is a slam hand.
That is a common mistake for inexperienced players and works both ways.
Firstly, a lot of inexperienced players pick up a 18 count or so (and this hand, with the 5 card suit and all those Aces, counts as at least 18), and drive to slam, usually (mis)using blackwood along the way, despite the fact that in most of these cases blackwood doesn't help the player count 12 winners.
Secondly, and conversely, a lot of inexperienced players pick up moderate opening values, say a good 14-15 count, and give up on slam because they are too focused on how many hcp they and partner have rather than on how many tricks they rate to take (and whether they are off 2 or more cashing tricks).
Solving the second problem is far more difficult that is solving the first, since it takes years (and usually some help from more experienced players) to learn not only how to value hands but also how to bid cooperatively. The former, tho, should be easy to learn. Yes, with 18 or so, be hopeful, but keep your ears open (or, with bidding boxes, your eyes) and LISTEN to what your partner is telling you.
Thus, if partner has a balanced minimum, slam may be borderline or worse.
Consider him holding Kxx Qxx KJx KJxx. Sure, that is a fairly specific and pessimistic holding, but you are usually losing two tricks even tho you have 4 of the 5 keycards and two side Kings.
Consider him holding KQxx Kx x Kxxxxx. He might not even open that hand, but now slam is as close to cold was you could want.
Change that to KQJx KQx xx KJxx and he has a 14 count, and yet they cash two top diamonds against you.
You can see from this that you can't simply take charge and blast, yet at the same time, you don't need much.
Heck, give him KQxx x AKx KJxxx and you have 13 top tricks.
So you need to find out more about partner's hand.
How you do this depends on methods. Inverted minors are very popular amongst experienced players, altho I caution that to play them well requires a lot of discussion. Different pairs have different inverted minor methods: the one I play is very complex, but most people play a fairly simple form that may not be a lot of help with this hand, alas.
Lacking a way to show a forcing raise, you probably need to distort your hand. Distorting one's hand is rarely a good idea, but (if you don't have a forcing raise) you have no choice.
Never lie in a major....(as with any 'rule' there are exceptions but I wouldn't worry about them). So that leaves 1D
Bid 1D and see what happens.
If he bids 1N, then slam is less likely than you had hoped, but it is worth looking IF you have a way of showing clubs while forcing. If you don't then you can either bid 3N, pessimistic, or 4N, invitational to slam and slightly optimistic. I'd vote for 4N opposite a solid citizen.
If he bids a major, use fourth suit forcing, if available, and then bid clubs as cheaply as possible. FSF says, basically: we're going to game, and maybe more, so make the cheapest natural bid and I will tell you why I am so excited. Thus using FSF then bidding clubs is a slam try in clubs.
As for thinking about a slam...well, it is a good idea to hope that we may be exploring slam if partner shows signs of interest, but a very bad mistake to assume that this is a slam hand.
That is a common mistake for inexperienced players and works both ways.
Firstly, a lot of inexperienced players pick up a 18 count or so (and this hand, with the 5 card suit and all those Aces, counts as at least 18), and drive to slam, usually (mis)using blackwood along the way, despite the fact that in most of these cases blackwood doesn't help the player count 12 winners.
Secondly, and conversely, a lot of inexperienced players pick up moderate opening values, say a good 14-15 count, and give up on slam because they are too focused on how many hcp they and partner have rather than on how many tricks they rate to take (and whether they are off 2 or more cashing tricks).
Solving the second problem is far more difficult that is solving the first, since it takes years (and usually some help from more experienced players) to learn not only how to value hands but also how to bid cooperatively. The former, tho, should be easy to learn. Yes, with 18 or so, be hopeful, but keep your ears open (or, with bidding boxes, your eyes) and LISTEN to what your partner is telling you.
Thus, if partner has a balanced minimum, slam may be borderline or worse.
Consider him holding Kxx Qxx KJx KJxx. Sure, that is a fairly specific and pessimistic holding, but you are usually losing two tricks even tho you have 4 of the 5 keycards and two side Kings.
Consider him holding KQxx Kx x Kxxxxx. He might not even open that hand, but now slam is as close to cold was you could want.
Change that to KQJx KQx xx KJxx and he has a 14 count, and yet they cash two top diamonds against you.
You can see from this that you can't simply take charge and blast, yet at the same time, you don't need much.
Heck, give him KQxx x AKx KJxxx and you have 13 top tricks.
So you need to find out more about partner's hand.
How you do this depends on methods. Inverted minors are very popular amongst experienced players, altho I caution that to play them well requires a lot of discussion. Different pairs have different inverted minor methods: the one I play is very complex, but most people play a fairly simple form that may not be a lot of help with this hand, alas.
Lacking a way to show a forcing raise, you probably need to distort your hand. Distorting one's hand is rarely a good idea, but (if you don't have a forcing raise) you have no choice.
Never lie in a major....(as with any 'rule' there are exceptions but I wouldn't worry about them). So that leaves 1D
Bid 1D and see what happens.
If he bids 1N, then slam is less likely than you had hoped, but it is worth looking IF you have a way of showing clubs while forcing. If you don't then you can either bid 3N, pessimistic, or 4N, invitational to slam and slightly optimistic. I'd vote for 4N opposite a solid citizen.
If he bids a major, use fourth suit forcing, if available, and then bid clubs as cheaply as possible. FSF says, basically: we're going to game, and maybe more, so make the cheapest natural bid and I will tell you why I am so excited. Thus using FSF then bidding clubs is a slam try in clubs.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
#6
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 7,906
- Joined: 2014-February-18
- Gender:Male
- Location:Italy
Posted 2018-October-02, 04:06
There are other system approaches.
If your 2/1 system plays 1♣-2♣ as a game force (which implies no inverted minors) then you just do that and see how it develops. Both will soon figure out if partner really has clubs. Even if a 1♣ opening can occasionally be "natural" 2-cards, the odds of it actually being less than 4-cards are surprisingly small anyway.
If your 2/1 system plays 1♣-2♣ as a game force (which implies no inverted minors) then you just do that and see how it develops. Both will soon figure out if partner really has clubs. Even if a 1♣ opening can occasionally be "natural" 2-cards, the odds of it actually being less than 4-cards are surprisingly small anyway.
#7
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 171
- Joined: 2016-December-22
- Gender:Male
- Location:New York, USA
Posted 2018-October-02, 08:21
A common treatment using inverted minors is to use a jump shift in the other minor to distinguish a limit raise from a game forcing raise.
Originally, a 2♦ response was the game force in ♣, and a simple raise a limit raise in ♣. Many experienced players now reverse that - 2♦ is a limit bid in ♣. Therefore, 1♦ P - 3♣ becomes a limit raise in ♦ that has the disadvantage of using a lot of bidding space but also makes it harder for the opponents to interfere. This treatment uses the logic of saving bidding room when you have values and eating up space that the opponents might use when you are limited.
You might want to include this treatment in your system so that opener will know from the first response (added to what he knows from his own hand) whether you are going to game or not while still leaving as much room as possible to explore slam.
Originally, a 2♦ response was the game force in ♣, and a simple raise a limit raise in ♣. Many experienced players now reverse that - 2♦ is a limit bid in ♣. Therefore, 1♦ P - 3♣ becomes a limit raise in ♦ that has the disadvantage of using a lot of bidding space but also makes it harder for the opponents to interfere. This treatment uses the logic of saving bidding room when you have values and eating up space that the opponents might use when you are limited.
You might want to include this treatment in your system so that opener will know from the first response (added to what he knows from his own hand) whether you are going to game or not while still leaving as much room as possible to explore slam.
#8
- Group: Members
- Posts: 35
- Joined: 2017-December-15
Posted 2018-October-02, 15:34
1C (pard) - 2C (forcing) - 2D (weak NT no clubs) - 4N quantitative
OR
1c (pard) - 2c (forcing) - 2N (weak NT with clubs) - 3D (forcing) - would love to know where partners values lie - am driving club slam with the 10 card fit and around 31 hcp
1c (pard ) - 2c (forcing) - anything else shows an unbalanced hand - we can probably drive slam opposite 5 clubs and an unbalanced hand
OR
1c (pard) - 2c (forcing) - 2N (weak NT with clubs) - 3D (forcing) - would love to know where partners values lie - am driving club slam with the 10 card fit and around 31 hcp
1c (pard ) - 2c (forcing) - anything else shows an unbalanced hand - we can probably drive slam opposite 5 clubs and an unbalanced hand
#9
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 3,660
- Joined: 2011-February-12
Posted 2018-October-04, 06:22
SAYC this hand is good enough to treat it as 18 so there the bidding would probably be 1c 2n(13-15 or 18-19) then see what partner bids. If they do anything other than 3n I would start a cue bidding sequence searching for slam. If they bid 3n I would bid 4n to show 18-19 and let them decide. I have a big problem with 1d since
shortness in that suit makes slam almost a certainty and once we bid it the shortness will no longer appeal to partner and it makes cue bidding sketchy and might make opener feel 3n is the best route when 5c would be vastly superior. Over a 3n rebid I would bid 4c as a club slam try IF I felt my partner would take it that way instead of maybe for gerber or some such.
2/1 uses inverted minors (mostly). Some play it as GF others as invite + (my personal favorite). I would start with 1c 2c with either system and take it from there.
Your hand is definitely good enough to consider slam but you have a long way to go before deciding the best path to not only strain but how high. Take your time and see if you can gather the needed information.
shortness in that suit makes slam almost a certainty and once we bid it the shortness will no longer appeal to partner and it makes cue bidding sketchy and might make opener feel 3n is the best route when 5c would be vastly superior. Over a 3n rebid I would bid 4c as a club slam try IF I felt my partner would take it that way instead of maybe for gerber or some such.
2/1 uses inverted minors (mostly). Some play it as GF others as invite + (my personal favorite). I would start with 1c 2c with either system and take it from there.
Your hand is definitely good enough to consider slam but you have a long way to go before deciding the best path to not only strain but how high. Take your time and see if you can gather the needed information.
Page 1 of 1
- You cannot start a new topic
- Add Reply