[ahydra]

Cross-IMPs (aka the worst form of scoring ever). Vul vs not.

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Do you reckon you have enough to reopen here? If so, X or 4NT?

ahydra

[apollo1201]

Uneasy situation, as we have just enough to reopen, but after 2 passes, the 4S bidder could be quite strong.

If we were to do sth, X is more flexible than 4NT, as we can still play 4SX, while 4NT unilaterally forces us to undertake an 11-trick contract, which is a bit ambitious facing a passed partner.

Over X, she should only bid 5 something (or 4NT) with real hopes of making (good honor structure, some distribution) or an extremely distributional (weak) hand as a « save » (500 vs 420 is not a big disaster at IMPs). She will pass in’most cases, and my A AK are the strength I advertised (please don’t lead H!). Anyway we won’t get extremely rich (100 vs. 50, 300 vs. 100).

But I’ll try X anyway.

Maybe I just turned -420 into -590, but it is better than -800🤣

[nige1]

ahydra' asks 'Cross-IMPs (aka the worst form of scoring ever). Vul vs not.
Do you reckon you have enough to reopen here? If so, X or 4NT?'
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
IMO Cross-imps is OK.
Although I prefer match-points or even
Butler (because it's easier to check scores)
I rank
1. Double = T/O
2. 4N = ART Unilateral.
3. Pass = NAT Pusillanimous.

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[nudnikbp]

Double. More than a minimum opener and the spade void could be annoying for West.

[msjennifer]

Sir a few questions here. (1)N has passed TWICE .Does it suggest anything? 2) What does a bid of double over THREE spade taken as.(3)I is there any difference between 3Sx and 4Sx by NORTH ?.In absence of this information on partnership understanding,I am left with only a guesswork.I shall not be on lead and a heart lead MAY prove beneficial to the declarer. I do see 3 quick tricks in the minors as there is not much length in either..It does seem risky but I shall double.May work either way although.!

[pbf001]

Here in Southwest Florida, double is penalty; NT is take out.
In my humble opinion, this is an automatic 4nt take out bid.

[ahydra]

Thanks all, full hand was:

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Partner opted to pass given the vulnerability, and 4S made when we have 6H on (though we'd realistically only get to 5H). I thought it was close, it feels double is a big risk. But I suppose partner rates to have something, and if he is broke and passes, -790 vs -620 isn't the worst at IMPs.

That was a flattish result, but we lost the match when opps bid 3NT rather than the doomed 4H that everyone else was in. In a subsequent round we played almost perfectly and had a neutral or positive result on every board - and still lost by 0.2 xIMPs. And that kind of thing is why I think xIMPs is the worst form of scoring ever. It only works well in large fields of high-standard players (the Cavendish, for example), both of which were not the case here (not least because I was playing ).

ahydra

[msjennifer]

nige1, on 2019-March-16, 09:49, said:

ahydra' asks 'Cross-IMPs (aka the worst form of scoring ever). Vul vs not.
Do you reckon you have enough to reopen here? If so, X or 4NT?'
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
IMO Cross-imps is OK.
Although I prefer match-points or even
Butler (because it's easier to check scores)
I rank
1. Double = T/O
2. 4N = ART Unilateral.
3. Pass = NAT Pusillanimous.

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Sir.I I agree fully..though we play a double as T/O a little flexible.For example holding something like KJx=xx-xxxx-xxxx North is at liberty to convert it into penalty, if he feels so.

[msjennifer]

pbf001, on 2019-March-17, 09:52, said:

Here in Southwest Florida, double is penalty; NT is take out.
In my humble opinion, this is an automatic 4nt take out bid.

Sir,in a strong field,West fully reasons out in his mind the likely reactions of opponents.There can hardly be a good outcome by doubling for penalties on this particular hand.A 4NT bid as a T/O is ,I personally feel, rather a unilateral decision leaving no option to partner but to bid a four card minor if he does not have length and strength in the heart suit.,However, kindly note that I am not at all adversely criticising playing a double for penalties.

[kuhchung]

Reopening 4NT is just out of the question imo. Do you play double as general values or something and 4NT as 3 suited takeout? I would X.

I think partner looking at xxx in spades should just close his eyes and bid 5H directly but I dunno. Eager to see stronger players comment. If I passed originally and partner reopens 4S, boy I wish I had a way to show a 5.5H bid. Grue switch here!?

[mikeh]

FWIW, mu view is that a reopening double is automatic with this hand.

That is so even if N-S don't have the normal agreement that a double by North of 4S would be card-showing, rather than penalty.

A rare but important side-effect of that standard (at least amongst good players) agreement is that North has to pass 4S when he has a penalty double, and hope that partner can reopen. Here, as it happens, North doesn't have the penalty double hand, but South's void makes it reasonably likely that he does. In any event, reopening with a double has far more upside than downside
We may be able to defeat them, when partner is able to pass

We may reach a making contract, and there is no way we can beat 4S, undoubled, enough to outweigh that plus

We may reach a failing contract but, even if doubled, go down less than they score for making 4S

We may push them one level higher, and beat 5S when we can't beat 4S (or beat them more)

Both sides may have a making game, including us at the 5-level


As opposed to that, we lose if has a terrible hand, since they probably make if he passes and we may go for a number if he bids. As against that last factor, it is often difficult to double if the 4S bidder has extras...his partner will play him for a 4S preempt, and the preemptor won't know whether it is his partner who is bust. Btw, as North, with a terrible hand, one should plan what one is going to do over a reopening double while giving the usual 10 sec pause over 4S. Then one can bid in tempo. The worst thing one can do is to pass 4S, without anticipating the problem, and then go into the tank before coming out with an agonized 4N or 5m...now the opps are more likely to scent the blood in the water.

Over the reopening double North has a comfortable 5H. Yes, slam is possible with this hand, but once the opps jam one, one should tend to aim low.

Reopening with 4N does prevent the possibility of pass from North on a poor hand, but allows West to make a cheap strength-showing double with a good hand, and thus allows his partner to double our run-out more aggressively. Note that West would need an extraordinary hand to be able to redouble 4S, and such probably says more about his offence than his defence ( AKJxxxxxx Ax x x as an example to be worried about, as his partner thinking about a 5-level decision).

Also, and critically (tho not on this actual hand) 4N eliminates the very real prospect of beating 4S x'd, and to make things worse, making going down in our contract instead.

[mikeh]

pbf001, on 2019-March-17, 09:52, said:

Here in Southwest Florida, double is penalty; NT is take out.
In my humble opinion, this is an automatic 4nt take out bid.

I am very sure that even in Southwest Florida virtually every expert pair uses double here as takeout. Not only is this pretty near universal with good players everywhere, but (unless you have west players bidding like idiots), you will have to play a very long time before South ever holds a penalty double of a suit bid at the 4-level behind him, after a 1-level opening.

[miamijd]

Double. WTP?