[haka9]

mycroft, on 2020-October-01, 09:42, said:

OP: remember, "playing negative doubles" isn't complete. "Playing negative doubles through [something]" is. For instance, one of the shocks of SAYC to modern audiences is that negative doubles go through 2♠ only. I've played that (and got 1100 out of a local pro who had the misfortune of hitting the only pair in the room for whom 1♠-3♦-X was penalty), I've played "through 3♠", I've played "through 7♥" (though of course the expectation that the double will get passed gets exponentially higher the higher the preempt goes). But assuming you play negX through at least 3♠...

I have played negative doubles through 7♥ with one partner. Playing with anyone else I pass. "When fixed stay fixed." (Was it Al Roth?)

[Dinarius]

The strong vs. weak NT arguments are very interesting.

As played, I think that Pass is the best action most of the time. Can S really force us to the 4 level with that hand? I'm not convinced now. Yes, preempts do work sometimes, and we have to take our medicine.

Weak NT pairs might have opened 1NT with North. Now East gets to play in 2♠, presumably. So, the Strong NT N/S will gain when 3♠ is going minus one. And if 3♠ makes, they score the same as the N/S weak NT pairs.

But, for the record, the actual hand was..

---

Yes, all S Doubled and they got away with it. Almost all N/S in 5♦ None in 6♦

Thanks for the replies.

D.

[Zelandakh]

Dinarius, on 2020-October-02, 03:44, said:

Weak NT pairs might have opened 1NT with North. Now East gets to play in 2♠, presumably. So, the Strong NT N/S will gain when 3♠ is going minus one. And if 3♠ makes, they score the same as the N/S weak NT pairs.

Over a WNT, many Easts would overcall 3♠ judging the hand as not constructive enough for 2♠. South would pass this. After a 2♠ overcall, it would be very strange for South to pass with an easy double available.

[Huibertus]

This hand illustrates why I like playing 5card M/ weak NT systems. Partner either has extra values or is unballanced in this situation.

But now that we do play a strong NT, I feel you have to double. And yes, it might be -800. However, you can't afford to miss 4♥ Partner holding a 12-/13 hcp 3442, and partner is not going to bid again. You also can't afford + 100 as that likely is not enough, so you have to present partner the option of making that +200 with a pass, he cannot do that himself. Then if partner bids 3NT, that might lead to the -800 mentioned but could also sometimes be a magical +600 due to the informative bidding of East on a combined 22 HCP. On balance you can expect to score more if you double on these hands, but you have to accept the occasional bottom.

Then, if you do decide to pass and Partner bids 4♦? Now that is the tough one. You should try not to hang partner for balancing by raising him, but that seems difficult, can you really have more then you do? I would expect partner is allowed to doubvle on a 1363, so I don't expect him to be real short in ♠, hence I'll pass, my heart values will not be that helpfull and the rest is what partner would expect anyway.

Nice problem!

[mycroft]

It is a nice problem, and proof that "Preempts Work"™. Another nice problem is, given that you will pass this hand, what hands balance - given you have the same -200 potential if opener's partner passed the same hand without the ♣QJ? Or with 3=4=2=4? Or the dreaded zero-count (but then, why aren't they in 4?)

I'm almost never afraid of -800 at MPs ("into -620" is basically the only time). -200 is the Matchpoint Death Score, for a reason. Extra undertricks are just rounding off the zero.

I'd also like to highlight the person who asked "what if you're not in the same boat as everyone else, because this pair is known aggressive in the field" (or "known conservative in the field", I guess). If you don't know the pair or the field, then you basically have to assume it's the field choice, but it is worth thinking about that before making a decision. If the field is having to handle 1♦-(2♠)...

[mikeh]

The double would lead to an interesting decision for North. It’s very hard to construct a hand that does not provide a play for 6D

Of course, pass should also lead to at least 5D. So, in the field in which nobody bid slam (!), the double gains nothing.

[nudnikbp]

My first reaction was to double, but mikeh's lucid competitive bidding tutorial convinced me that doubling is an anti-percentage call.

[mikeh]

Dinarius, on 2020-October-01, 11:52, said:

Great responses. Food for thought. Thanks.

If you Pass, LHO passes and Partner bids 4♦️. Do you bid 5♦️ now?

Yes, preempts do sometimes work. So, does that strengthen the case for bidding?

D.

Of course you bid at least 5D now. I’d actually bid 5C with a trustworthy partner. I cannot possibly have a desire to play in 5C rather than 4D but I may well have, as I do, a hand that couldn’t quite act over 3S. Now partner will surely drive to slam

Btw, what spade holding do you think partner has for 4D? I’d be surprised if he has as many as 2.

As for ‘preempts do sometimes work’, one big reason they often work against aggressive players is that aggressive players can’t make themselves use the pass card.

[joelunch]

Dinarius, on 2020-October-01, 02:30, said:

At Matchpoints, playing Strong NT/5 card, your partner opens a natural 1♦

East's 3♠ is weak. Both sides Vul.

Given that N may have everything from a re-biddable 11 count in ♦ to a bad 1NT 12 count rebid, to a powerhouse, what is your bid now?

You are playing negative doubles.

D.

---

I dbl.

[joelunch]

I would dbl

[Douglas43]

As an experienced 12-14 NT / 4cM player, who is trying to adjust to 15-17/5cM for online play, this discussion is particularly educational. When I saw it I thought "Ladybird book negative double, what's the problem?". The discussion shows why it's not so simple in a strong/5cM context. My thanks to the various posters.

[Cultural reference: Ladybird Books were illustrated educational books for children in the 1960s. The modern spoofs, which use the original illustrations on humorous themes aimed at adults, are well worth a look]

[miamijd]

Pass is the percentage action over 3S. In order for X to be right, partner would need either 5/5 in the minors or 6 diamonds, so that you have a 9-fit. Possible, but not likely. If you have a 4/4 heart fit, partner is likely to be balanced or semi-balanced, in which case he doesn't have a 15-17 NT, so you don't have a game (plus the trump are apt to break badly). If partner has 1444 and a halfway decent hand, he might find a X.

I agree with Mike H. that if the overcall were 3H and your 4-card major were spades, X stands out. There's a big difference between a good shot at the 3-level and having to go to the 4-level.

If partner reopens with 4D, WTP? 5D, of course. Partner is playing you for around 7 HCP on this auction; you have 10 really good ones, three-card trump support, and no spade wastage. If it makes exactly 10 tricks, well, I've gotten poor results before

Cheers,
Mike

[miamijd]

mikeh, on 2020-October-02, 13:49, said:

Of course you bid at least 5D now. I’d actually bid 5C with a trustworthy partner. I cannot possibly have a desire to play in 5C rather than 4D but I may well have, as I do, a hand that couldn’t quite act over 3S. Now partner will surely drive to slam

Btw, what spade holding do you think partner has for 4D? I’d be surprised if he has as many as 2.

As for ‘preempts do sometimes work’, one big reason they often work against aggressive players is that aggressive players can’t make themselves use the pass card.

Preempts work against Ron Gerard and Jeff Meckstroth alike. Indeed, it's more important to preempt against top players than against average ones. If you let top players have unimpeded auctions when you could have interfered, they will slice you up like a salami.

Cheers,
Mike

[Douglas43]

Just a thought, but what about West? [1D] -3S -[Pass] and he's sitting there with 4 card support.
Should he raise to 4S or should he pass and hope that each opponent thinks that their partner has losing spades?
I'm not a fan of walking the dog myself, and would raise, but this does give NS another chance...

[dsLawsd]

Double. A zero is just a zero and I do not want them to steal. That is why so many play some version of a Forcing club after all.
Many top pairs play through 7 as negative. That, of course, puts lots of pressure on the open bidder. And the opponents will have to field the next call also.

At Imps I pass and may regret it.