[jillybean]

---

2/1, 12-14nt, usual gadgets.

I assume everyone opens 1♦, but what now?

[gszes]

I would go with 2h reverse. This leaves about as much space as possible for exploration and that can be crucial since we have no clue where we are headed. The reverse shows almost the same values as a jump shift and creates a force (unless p lied over 1d in which case 2h might work well (Kxxxxx xxxx void xxx) if they pass our 2h (which I normally would hate to see) bid.

[pilowsky]

I didn't know that 12-14 NT range was available in 2/1.
Could you provide a link, please?

[Cyberyeti]

gszes, on 2021-March-29, 16:14, said:

I would go with 2h reverse. This leaves about as much space as possible for exploration and that can be crucial since we have no clue where we are headed. The reverse shows almost the same values as a jump shift and creates a force (unless p lied over 1d in which case 2h might work well (Kxxxxx xxxx void xxx) if they pass our 2h (which I normally would hate to see) bid.

I agree with this, I play 12-14 but not 2/1 but it doesn't matter here, my options are 1N (15-bad 19) for which I'm slightly overweight, 2♣ (forcing if you actually had a response) and 2♥(showing a 5th diamond I don't possess, limited by failure to bid a GF unbalanced 2N as 2♣ is also).

I think 2♥ is least of evils here although 1N is quite attractive, 2N much less so if that's your systemic NT rebid with 19.

[jillybean]

---

2♥ it is.
How do you play 3♣ here. Checkback, Forward going, ostensibly asking you to bid NT with a ♣ stopper?

[smerriman]

I'm not a fan of reversing with 1444; there was a long debate about it in the primer on reverse bidding where mikeh was strongly against it.

But having done so, assuming you are playing 2NT as weakness as per that primer, 3♣ to me is a pretty rare response - GF but denying 5 spades (would continue with 2♠ instead), 3 diamonds, or 4 hearts. Some of those hands might bid 3NT, but regardless, we must have a club fit, so I'm continuing with 4♣.

[mw64ahw]

I play this strength/shape hand as an option within my Strong 2♣/Multi 2♣. It is also sometimes used in a Multi ♦ context. Typically the bidding would go 2♣-2♦-3X(1 under shortage).

Alternatively, if 1♠ is natural (mine isn't) 1♦-3NT fits the bill unless this means something different for you.

[AL78]

If you are playing Lebensohl, 3♣ shows game going strength with no obvious rebid. Tends to be a waiting bid denying three card support for opener's first suit and no clear action. In fact, it is usually natural.

http://www.omahabrid...mh_REVERSES.pdf

Based on this, 4♣ looks a reasonable continuation.

[nullve]

pilowsky, on 2021-March-29, 16:46, said:

I didn't know that 12-14 NT range was available in 2/1.
Could you provide a link, please?

https://bridgewithda...ft-Jan-2008.pdf

https://bridgewithda...tel_Stansby.txt

[apollo1201]

Heavy 4441s are hard to tackle, it is an euphemism...

You can rebid either 2NT, 2H or 3C in most common systems or natural agreements.

I’d favor 2H as more subtle and economical bid. A singleton honor S would push me towards 2NT. 3C is GF, doable but less flexible and risks losing H for good. I know I’m promising a 5th diamond but no bid is perfect anyway.

If now partner bids 3C, it is a GF positive but without clear direction, so probably no 5th spade, maybe 3 small diamonds at most, no 4H, and maybe no stop or desire to have the lead in NT. So presumably some kind of C suit (Axxx? Jxxx?).

4C could be great but we might be heading towards a bad contract (AKJx xxx Jx xxxx)...

I play 3NT (rather than 3C by responder) as 10-12 and 2NT then 3NT as 8-10. Not sure it is standard. Then 3C could be a bigger bigger hand which makes 4C less risky.

[Cyberyeti]

apollo1201, on 2021-March-30, 04:15, said:

Heavy 4441s are hard to tackle, it is an euphemism...

You can rebid either 2NT, 2H or 3C in most common systems or natural agreements.

I’d favor 2H as more subtle and economical bid. A singleton honor S would push me towards 2NT. 3C is GF, doable but less flexible and risks losing H for good. I know I’m promising a 5th diamond but no bid is perfect anyway.

If now partner bids 3C, it is a GF positive but without clear direction, so probably no 5th spade, maybe 3 small diamonds at most, no 4H, and maybe no stop or desire to have the lead in NT. So presumably some kind of C suit (Axxx? Jxxx?).

4C could be great but we might be heading towards a bad contract (AKxx Axx Jx xxxx)...

I play 3NT (rather than 3C by responder) as 10-12 and 2NT then 3NT as 8-10. Not sure it is standard. Then 3C could be a bigger bigger hand which makes 4C less risky.

You have the ♥A so the hand given is impossible, also 4N should be natural over 4♣ and you should have enough to make it

[pescetom]

apollo1201, on 2021-March-30, 04:15, said:

A singleton honor S would push me towards 2NT.

It would push some towards opening 2NT in the first place, with 19 hcp, strong hearts and opponents vulnerable.

[apollo1201]

Cyberyeti, on 2021-March-30, 04:30, said:

You have the ♥A so the hand given is impossible, also 4N should be natural over 4♣ and you should have enough to make it

Oops yeah sorry I wanted a xxx and edited while adding the S J but you are right we can probably live in 4NT anyway after all when partner made a 4SF call. At least it is worth to risk it.

[akwoo]

pilowsky, on 2021-March-29, 16:46, said:

I didn't know that 12-14 NT range was available in 2/1.
Could you provide a link, please?

I don't know that it's been written up anywhere, but people (including me) play it. It's the natural evolution of Kaplan-Sheinwold. It's pretty much what you think it is.

[mycroft]

We play 2/1 GF except suit rebid. For the number of times that matters in a year, we could switch to 2/1 AGF/1M pretty mindlessly.

1m-2m and 1♦-2♣ being AGF would be a much harder task, but I'm not convinced of the merits of that in a strong NT system either.

As akwoo said, K/S is pretty much there already. If your weak NT experience comes from Acol, it will be a much bigger shift.

[Winstonm]

I raise clubs. Partner has to be 4324 - with 5 spades he would rebid spades, with 3 diamonds he would support diamonds (the reverse is supposed to show 5+) and with 4 hearts he would raise. He must have a decent hand as with as little as 9xxx of clubs I would expect a nt bid. About the weakest hand for this bidding would be AQxx, xxx, xx, Axxx in my view.

[pilowsky]

akwoo, on 2021-March-30, 11:23, said:

I don't know that it's been written up anywhere, but people (including me) play it. It's the natural evolution of Kaplan-Sheinwold. It's pretty much what you think it is.

The reason I asked was that 2/1 "game-force" requires that if the responder bids 2 of a minor (or 2♥ over 1♠) then they must hold enough values for the partnership to reach game.
I always believed that with 1NT in that system, 2♣ was game-forcing following the same reasoning.
With an 11-14 opening of 1NT (1st or 2nd seat), your partner is pre-empted.
An entirely different approach is then needed.

It still isn't clear how this fits systemically into 2/1 GF - I'll read the references provided - thanks.

[akwoo]

pilowsky, on 2021-March-30, 14:40, said:

The reason I asked was that 2/1 "game-force" requires that if the responder bids 2 of a minor (or 2♥ over 1♠) then they must hold enough values for the partnership to reach game.
I always believed that with 1NT in that system, 2♣ was game-forcing following the same reasoning.
With an 11-14 opening of 1NT (1st or 2nd seat), your partner is pre-empted.
An entirely different approach is then needed.

It still isn't clear how this fits systemically into 2/1 GF - I'll read the references provided - thanks.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I play Stayman and transfers after the 12-14 1N opening - responder just has to be 3 hcp heavier for all invitational or game forcing bids. (The one difference from my strong NT partnerships is that we play South African Texas at the 4 level instead.)

Some people play two-way Stayman and no transfers instead, or the original Kaplan-Sheinwold structure, or something more unusual. The structure over the 1N opening is a pretty detachable part of the system.

[mycroft]

There are non-GF bids over 1NT openers no matter what the opener's range is. Playing 2/1 GF, at a minimum you promise that after 1M-2m, your side is forced through 3S. As a result, most non-GF hands go through 1NT, which is now (usually) forcing 1 round, but not necessarily strong.

Like everything there are additions and exceptions, some basically standard:

• 1♠-2♥ is game forcing?
  
• what about 1♦-2♣?
  
• what about 1m-2m? (Assuming that's the strong raise)
  
• "GF unless suit rebid"?
  
• 1M-1NT passable? When? what about p-1M; 1NT?
  
• when can you pass 4m? (this answer can be from "never" to "always", and it's a definite danger if not discussed)
  
• ...

Nothing there about 1NT openers. 1NT-2♣; 2♦-p with a 4450 zero count - go for it. No difference if it's a weak NT or a strong one.

If I sat down with someone from North America having agreed 2/1, with explicitly no other discussion, I would currently assume:

• 1♠-2♥ is 5+ GF;
  
• 1♦-2♣ promises a rebid below game, but isn't necessarily GF;
  
• I'd assume that 1m-2m is GF, unless I know the person is from a known "limit+" area;
  
• 1NT is completely forcing by UPH, and totally non-forcing by PH;
  
• we're playing all the standard Standard gadgets, J2N, Drury, NMF, 4SF, negX and responsiveX;
  
• while I won't bid 4NT without getting the answer, when partner does, it's 1430.

Needless to say, even 5 minutes discussion will help solidify things amazingly.

[pilowsky]

mycroft, on 2021-March-30, 21:51, said:

There are non-GF bids over 1NT openers no matter what the opener's range is. Playing 2/1 GF, at a minimum you promise that after 1M-2m, your side is forced through 3S. As a result, most non-GF hands go through 1NT, which is now (usually) forcing 1 round, but not necessarily strong.

Like everything there are additions and exceptions, some basically standard:

• 1♠-2♥ is game forcing?
• what about 1♦-2♣?
• what about 1m-2m? (Assuming that's the strong raise)
• "GF unless suit rebid"?
• 1M-1NT passable? When? what about p-1M; 1NT?
• when can you pass 4m? (this answer can be from "never" to "always", and it's a definite danger if not discussed)
• ...

Nothing there about 1NT openers. 1NT-2♣; 2♦-p with a 4450 zero count - go for it. No difference if it's a weak NT or a strong one.

If I sat down with someone from North America having agreed 2/1, with explicitly no other discussion, I would currently assume:

• 1♠-2♥ is 5+ GF;
• 1♦-2♣ promises a rebid below game, but isn't necessarily GF;
• I'd assume that 1m-2m is GF, unless I know the person is from a known "limit+" area;
• 1NT is completely forcing by UPH, and totally non-forcing by PH;
• we're playing all the standard Standard gadgets, J2N, Drury, NMF, 4SF, negX and responsiveX;
• while I won't bid 4NT without getting the answer, when partner does, it's 1430.

Needless to say, even 5 minutes discussion will help solidify things amazingly.

I was being a little more simplistic but the way I learned it - which isn't saying much:
Any 2-level bid over a 1 major opening in a new suit is GF.
Since I also play inverted minors, 1M/2M is also GF.

Staying in the spirit of things,
1NT/ 2♣ is (almost always) GF and so is 1NT/2♠ minor Stayman playing with GIB.

and so on.

But yes, I agree Discussion is critical because not all SAYC players believe in 2/1 GF although I thought it was fairly common even in SAYC.