[jillybean]

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2/1 usual forums gadgets. 4♦ is 1st/2nd round control

[Winstonm]

Are you playing serious 3nt?

[jillybean]

Winstonm, on 2021-May-06, 14:48, said:

Are you playing serious 3nt?

No, sorry! We tried it for a while but had too many disasters.

[sfi]

Partner is making a slam try with no first or second round control in either black suit? The rest of their hand must be solid and my hand will be just what they need. Seven is likely to be on if they have the SQ, and I may be able to show that. If I cue 4S and then 5S that has to show the SA, SK and CA. Partner can take it from there.

[DavidKok]

I agree with sfi. We have some extras, in that we have nice aces and kings. I'd be worried about a club loser in 6♥ since the lead will be through our values. 4♠ seems like a fine bid. We don't know enough of partner's shape and strength to take control.

As an aside, there's a decent chance that 6NT (in our hand) will be better than 6♥ (in partner's hand). But in my experience whenever I get greedy like that it turns out partner bid on shape and I deeply regret it. So we will probably have to give up on that. Just bid the spades, and if partner persists with 5♦ it would be a close call between 5♥ ("I've said all I have to say"), 5NT ("Hey partner any extras? Also we might belong in something other than hearts.") and 6♥ ("I'm willing to gamble, but don't have enough extra for another positive bid"). I would probably bid 5♥ and trust partner knows that I have 'something' for bypassing 4♥.

[mikeh]

This hand illustrates a very useful cuebidding principle.

Responder expressly denied a club control (opinions vary as to whether he’s denied a spade control, but he should not usually cue shortness in your suit as his first cue, and of course your holding confirms he has no Ace or King. Some play 1S 2H 3H 3S as natural, but I think increasingly the trend is to forget about spades as trump and use 3S as a cue...discuss with partner)

So for you to go beyond game necessarily implies you have a club control. Therefore 4S promises controls in both black suits.

This may well allow him to use keycard.

As an aside, do you show number of kings or specific kings in response to a king ask?

[Winstonm]

sfi, on 2021-May-06, 15:53, said:

Partner is making a slam try with no first or second round control in either black suit? The rest of their hand must be solid and my hand will be just what they need. Seven is likely to be on if they have the SQ, and I may be able to show that. If I cue 4S and then 5S that has to show the SA, SK and CA. Partner can take it from there.

I had similar thoughts but decided a heart loser was a genuine risk so a direct 6h seems reasonable

[jillybean]

Specific Kings

[cherdano]

Winstonm, on 2021-May-06, 17:23, said:

I had similar thoughts but decided a heart loser was a genuine risk so a direct 6h seems reasonable

If only there was a convention to find out whether we have all aces and the top three trumps...

[jillybean]

We don't have the agreement of 4S showing both black controls. Yes, we should, it makes a lot of sense.
I bid 4S kickback/keycard, partner replied 2 without the Q, I signed off in 5H =

I will post the full hand later, at the moment I am typing this on my teeny tiny phone keyboard.

[Winstonm]

cherdano, on 2021-May-06, 17:40, said:

If only there was a convention to find out whether we have all aces and the top three trumps...

Yes. but what about the club loser?😏

[smerriman]

jillybean, on 2021-May-06, 17:46, said:

We don't have the agreement of 4S showing both black controls. Yes, we should, it makes a lot of sense.
I bid 4S kickback/keycard, partner replied 2 without the Q, I signed off in 5H =

If 4S is keycard, then 4N shows the black controls, doesn't it? Though of course it bypasses the keycard ask so not as useful here.

[jillybean]

smerriman, on 2021-May-06, 19:09, said:

If 4S is keycard, then 4N shows the black controls, doesn't it? Though of course it bypasses the keycard ask so not as useful here.

Yes, it would if we had that agreement.

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[LBengtsson]

well bid, jellybean! it is a d difficult hand to bid except in precision.

[mw64ahw]

♠

jillybean, on 2021-May-06, 15:02, said:

No, sorry! We tried it for a while but had too many disasters.

I didn't get on well with serious/frivolous NT either and now use 3NT to deny 2+ of the top 3 honours or 1+ if supporting partner. In this case it will avoid the slam in ♥.

I wouldn't bid the grand available in ♠ or NT and would likely sign-off in 4♥/3NT as West rather than looking for the NT slam. 3NT looks better since East must have ♦honours to make his point count for a slam try

Just back from an early morning spin class so thought I would complete the post.

Continued Q bidding after 3NT would show a top honour and a remaining interest in a ♥ slam, while bidding above 4♥ would be a NT slam try in whatever approach you use. I would use 4♠ to show an even number of Aces with other bids showing an odd number of Aces and a King in the suit bid with 4NT representing ♠ in this case.

[sfi]

jillybean, on 2021-May-06, 17:46, said:

We don't have the agreement of 4S showing both black controls. Yes, we should, it makes a lot of sense.

You don't really need the agreement - it's just a matter of logic. Opener has denied control in either black suit, so responder must have some assurance that the side has at most one loser there. Otherwise they would just sign off in game.

This means 4S (or 4NT if playing kickback) shows first-round control in one and second in the other. Similarly, a followup of 5S suggests grand so must show first-round control in both black suits. Since any other grand slam try would also show that, it should also show the SK.

[Douglas43]

It's a bit old fashioned, but I think an immediate 5♥ over 4♦ would say "I've got good controls but poor trumps".

[nige1]

cherdano, on 2021-May-06, 17:40, said:

If only there was a convention to find out whether we have all aces and the top three trumps...

Cherdano's key-card convention might get you to mw64ahw's 6N+1

[pescetom]

mw64ahw, on 2021-May-06, 23:32, said:

♠
I didn't get on well with serious/frivolous NT either and now use 3NT to deny 2+ of the top 3 honours or 1+ if supporting partner. In this case it will avoid the slam in ♥.

I wouldn't bid the grand available in ♠ or NT and would likely sign-off in 4♥/3NT as West rather than looking for the NT slam. 3NT looks better since East must have ♦honours to make his point count for a slam try

Just back from an early morning spin class so thought I would complete the post.

Continued Q bidding after 3NT would show a top honour and a remaining interest in a ♥ slam, while bidding above 4♥ would be a NT slam try in whatever approach you use. I would use 4♠ to show an even number of Aces with other bids showing an odd number of Aces and a King in the suit bid with 4NT representing ♠ in this case.

Late to the post, but as an exponent of indifferentiated control-bids here is my 2 cents.

I agree with mw64ahw that non-serious 3NT is better limited to indicating unexpectedly poor trump honours, rather than a generic red flag which a perfect partner might interpret correctly (although I concede in this case there would be little doubt).

FWIW our auction here would probably go:

1N 2♦ (xfer ♥)
2♥ 3♣ (xfer ♦)
3♥ 3N (worried about trump honours)
4♥...

At this point East probably should pass, but knowing we have 32+ HCP on the line I would probably punt 6N vulnerable at teams.