[P_Marlowe]

blackshoe, on 2021-November-09, 09:35, said:

You can argue all you like, Winston. I learned the term "high reverse" in England in the early 90s, and to me that's what it is. Now if a bunch of English experts want to tell me there's no such thing as a high reverse, maybe I'll change my mind, but until then, no.

https://en.wikipedia...Reverse_(bridge)

It may be an English expression, see the comment in the article, that High Reverse is an expression
used in the UK and in Acol.
I learned to play in the mid / late 90s in Ireland.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: At the end of the day the whole discussion is similar to the discussion, what does "or" mean,
do you use it as either or / or do you use it as and or (the mathematical way).
And for that matter in German "Das Selbe" und "Das Gleiche".

[Gilithin]

blackshoe, on 2021-November-09, 09:35, said:

You can argue all you like, Winston. I learned the term "high reverse" in England in the early 90s, and to me that's what it is. Now if a bunch of English experts want to tell me there's no such thing as a high reverse, maybe I'll change my mind, but until then, no.

Is there also in your world no such thing as a cable car or a flower bed? A cable car is not a car; a flower bed is not a bed; and a high reverse is not a reverse. But all of them exist under those specific names. What is so complicated about this?

[AL78]

This site suggests a high reverse is bidding a new suit above the rank of your opening suit, but at the three level rather than the two level:

---

Which is not the same as:

---

[Gilithin]

P_Marlowe, on 2021-November-09, 10:24, said:

And for that matter in German "Das Selbe" und "Das Gleiche".

For those not in the know, dasselbe is "exactly the same" (ie selfsame) and das Gleiche is "the same thing" (ie equivalent). But you can put ziemlich in front of either and now there is more or less no difference.

The real equivalent discussion in German is: "Is a lightbulb a type of pear?" or "Is a tortoise a type of toad?". The word for lightbulb is "glow pear" and a tortoise is a "shield toad". Blackshoe's argument becomes: "If a lightbulb is not a pear, it does not exist."

[Gilithin]

AL78, on 2021-November-09, 10:40, said:

This site suggests a high reverse is bidding a new suit above the rank of your opening suit, but at the three level rather than the two level:

You might like to read your link again: "A high-reverse bid is made by making a three-level bid in a lower suit than the original bid, after partner or opponents' two-level response".

[pilowsky]

Gilithin, on 2021-November-09, 10:38, said:

Is there also in your world no such thing as a cable car or a flower bed? A cable car is not a car; a flower bed is not a bed; and a high reverse is not a reverse. But all of them exist under those specific names. What is so complicated about this?

Bridge world discover homographs.
And no, that isn't something that displays data for members of the LGBQTIA2S+ community.

[Winstonm]

AL78, on 2021-November-09, 10:40, said:

This site suggests a high reverse is bidding a new suit above the rank of your opening suit, but at the three level rather than the two level:

---

Which is not the same as:

---

And Btw, I agree that the first example is a reverse. And I'm not even high!

The second example can be called a high reverse if that is what is voted on - or we can call it a George. Giving it a name does not make it a reverse.

[smerriman]

That site is actually contradictory since the example it gives fails the definition it gives.

[pescetom]

blackshoe, on 2021-November-09, 09:35, said:

You can argue all you like, Winston. I learned the term "high reverse" in England in the early 90s, and to me that's what it is. Now if a bunch of English experts want to tell me there's no such thing as a high reverse, maybe I'll change my mind, but until then, no.

A bunch of English and American dictionaries (such as Collins) define reverse as "a bid of a higher-ranking suit at the two level or higher by a player whose previous bid was of a lower-ranking suit".
No mention of jump bids in this definition, which is no surprise if you think about the derivation of the term.

[apollo1201]

pescetom, on 2021-November-10, 13:55, said:

A bunch of English and American dictionaries (such as Collins) define reverse as "a bid of a higher-ranking suit at the two level or higher by a player whose previous bid was of a lower-ranking suit".
No mention of jump bids in this definition, which is no surprise if you think about the derivation of the term.

Just for the fun, the French names (and to understand some, you really need to be high!!).
The high-reverse is an expensive bi-color (yes, we name the suits « colors » despite the fact that they are black or red…). And if you have only 13 HCP you are definitely cheap.
The (GF) jump shift is a bi-color « with a jump »
I’d like to know terms in other languages btw, probably quite funny too!

[pilowsky]

apollo1201, on 2021-November-10, 14:54, said:

Just for the fun, the French names (and to understand some, you really need to be high!!).
The high-reverse is an expensive bi-color (yes, we name the suits « colors » despite the fact that they are black or red…). And if you have only 13 HCP you are definitely cheap.
The (GF) jump shift is a bi-color « with a jump »
I'd like to know terms in other languages btw, probably quite funny too!

A quantum Bridge player might suggest that it's because the bidding of a stronger colour is stranger and more likely to succeed and make game.
As opposed to the bidding of a weaker suit, which is not strange and more likely to deteriorate if you do end up in a game contract.

[pescetom]

apollo1201, on 2021-November-10, 14:54, said:

Just for the fun, the French names (and to understand some, you really need to be high!!).
The high-reverse is an expensive bi-color (yes, we name the suits « colors » despite the fact that they are black or red…). And if you have only 13 HCP you are definitely cheap.
The (GF) jump shift is a bi-color « with a jump »
I’d like to know terms in other languages btw, probably quite funny too!

The Italian terms (with examples):
- 1♣ 1♠ 2♦ = "Rever" or "Rever ascendente" (F1)
- 1♦ 1♥ 2♠ = "Bicolore a salto" (Usually FG)
- 1♣ 1♦ 2NT = "Rever a senz'atout" (NF)
- 1♥ 1NT 3♥ = "Rever monocolore" (NF).

Suits are colours here too. And reverse is rever, from French.
At worst, all of these are considered more or less equally "Rever", indicating generic strength 15-18 HCP.
At best, people distinguish precisely in terms of strength and implications (and recognise that only the "Rever ascendente" is a true reverse).

[Gilithin]

German also uses colour for suit (Farbe). The rebid terms I see for Forum D descriptions are:

1♥ - 1♠ -- 2♦ is a cheap 2-suiter (billiger Zweifärber, sparsamer Zweifärber) or are cheap-to-bid 2-suiters (billig zu reizende Zweifärbe).
1♥ - 1♠ -- 3♦ is a cheap 2-suiter in the jump (billiger Zweifärber im Sprung), a cheap 2-suiter with jump (billiger Zweifärber mit Sprung) or (somewhat strangely) jump bidding (Sprungreizung).
1♦ - 1♠ -- 2♥ is an expensive 2-suiter (teurer Zweifärber) or expensive to bid 2-suiters (teuer zu reizende Zweifärber) but the term reverse (Reverse-Reizung or just Reverse) is also used.
1♠ - 2♦ -- 3♣ does not appear to have a special term dedicated to it and is usually included with the "teure Zweifärber", since "expensive" refers to being above 2 of the original suit rather than to suit order.
Finally, rebidding your own suit is a repeat (Wiederholung) and raising partner's suit is a lift (Hebung) or support (Unterstützung).

The fact that so many terms are used interchangeably suggests that Germans are more concerned with what the bids are and what they mean than what to call them. That might not a bad strategy for some others to follow.

[profhsg]

I didn't intend to get a debate going on whether 1♥, 2♦, 3♣ is a reverse by the 3♣ bidder. But as long as it has gotten started here's my 2 cents worth. I first learned bridge back in the 1970's. The first bridge book I read was Edgar Kaplan's Winning Contract Bridge Complete. Kaplan wrote that any rebid by opener which forces the responder to bid at the three level if they prefer opener's first suit is a reverse. Kaplan stated that the reason for this was not that some conclave of bridge "graybeards" mandated this, but because it drove the auction to the three level and should thus show extra values. Now bridge bidding has come quite a long way in the half century plus since Kaplan wrote that. Nonetheless, that has, for better or worse, remained my framework for what a reverse is.

[AL78]

When it comes to 1♦ - 1♠ - 2♥, and 1♥ - 2♦ - 3♣, what really matters is not the absolute correct name for the second bid, but that you and your partner are on the same wavelength as to what it shows, both in terms of suit length and overall strength.

[pescetom]

Gilithin, on 2021-November-10, 17:42, said:

1♥ - 1♠ -- 3♦ is a cheap 2-suiter in the jump (billiger Zweifärber im Sprung), a cheap 2-suiter with jump (billiger Zweifärber mit Sprung) or (somewhat strangely) jump bidding (Sprungreizung).
1♦ - 1♠ -- 2♥ is an expensive 2-suiter (teurer Zweifärber) or expensive to bid 2-suiters (teuer zu reizende Zweifärber) but the term reverse (Reverse-Reizung or just Reverse) is also used.

Italians have a neat variation on the 'cheap'/'expensive' theme. They use the native equivalent 'Rovescio' interchangeably with 'Rever' and counterpose this to 'Diritto' (playing on the fact that 'Rovescio' is also "Backhand" in tennis terms, while 'Diritto' is 'Forehand'). So a hand not worth a reverse is 'una mano di diritto'.

Gilithin, on 2021-November-10, 17:42, said:

Finally, rebidding your own suit is a repeat (Wiederholung) and raising partner's suit is a lift (Hebung) or support (Unterstützung).

In Italian 'ripetere il proprio colore', while raising partner's suit is 'appoggiare' (to support) the first time and then 'rialzare' (to raise).
Things start getting trickier in a contested auction, where to cue-bid opponents' suit is 'surlicitare' (to overcall) and to overcall is 'intervenire'.

[blackshoe]

Gilithin, on 2021-November-09, 11:04, said:

Blackshoe's argument becomes: "If a lightbulb is not a pear, it does not exist."

My argument is that the term "high reverse" has meaning, and that arguing that "a high reverse is not a reverse" misses the point entirely.

[smerriman]

You could argue that there are two ways of bidding in both sequences:

1♦ - 1♠ - 2♥ forces the auction higher higher than 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♦.
1♠ - 2♦ - 3♣ forces the auction higher than 1♣ - 1♦ - 1♠.

So it's not far fetched to see that 'reverse' can be used in both cases to refer to reversing the order from one that allows a cheap response to one that does not, thus showing a better hand.

I wouldn't call it a reverse myself, but I don't they are as dissimilar as some are making out.

[Gilithin]

blackshoe, on 2021-November-12, 15:31, said:

My argument is that the term "high reverse" has meaning, and that arguing that "a high reverse is not a reverse" misses the point entirely.

That is precisely the point I made, so I guess it was you who missed it.

[blackshoe]

Senility set in. I didn't notice.