[pescetom]

The hand

This was a tricky deal in any case, but double described as takeout did not help.
What would 1NT have shown?

[smerriman]

Off-shape takeout doubles is a long-standing issue with GIB. It adds 2 points for the singleton spade and deems that hand to be too strong for a simple overcall, which forces it to double. But it doesn't understand any followups after that even if the opponents hadn't preempted from there.

(And won't overcall 1NT with a singleton).

[pescetom]

 smerriman, on 2022-April-28, 17:19, said:

Off-shape takeout doubles is a long-standing issue with GIB. It adds 2 points for the singleton spade and deems that hand to be too strong for a simple overcall, which forces it to double. But it doesn't understand any followups after that even if the opponents hadn't preempted from there.

(And won't overcall 1NT with a singleton).

Thanks.
I can understand no strong overcalls and moderately off shape takeout, but a singleton in the other major is crazy, much more so than a singleton in 1NT with a stop. They could at least provide a more honest explanation ("Takeout. 0-5 hearts, 1+ other suits" or whatever).

[helene_t]

It seems like that dbl is defined as t/o shape OR 17+ any hand, but when it has the 17+ hand it doesn't understand that partner is bidding under the assumption that it has support for all unbid suits, so that doubler will have to bid their own suit to clarify.

This particular hand is a bit different, it just made a somewhat ill-judged (but not really terrible imho) double, and then it got toasted.

[smerriman]

 helene_t, on 2022-April-29, 11:48, said:

It seems like that dbl is defined as t/o shape OR 17+ any hand, but when it has the 17+ hand it doesn't understand that partner is bidding under the assumption that it has support for all unbid suits, so that doubler will have to bid their own suit to clarify.

It *somewhat* does - if RHO had passed and you bid 1♠ / 2♠, it will continue with 2♦ / 3♦ with the description changing to rebiddable diamonds and 18+ total points. Not that diamonds are good enough for that here.

The main problem is that it doesn't plan for any further interference from the opps, so gets into huge trouble when that happens. And that's the main reason takeout doubles on hands like this are just plain bad. (Of course, East psyching a weak hand doesn't help).

If you think this was bad, be extremely thankful that East didn't bid 3♥. If South continues with 3♠ (showing nothing more than a 6-10 count), then North will bid.. wait for it.. 4♥..

[thepossum]

How about offshape 2NT or even very offshape Michaels

[nige1]

Pescetom 'This was a tricky deal in any case, but double described as takeout did not help.
What would 1NT have shown?
++++++++++++++++++++
An offshape T/O double is fraught and especially overbid with Gib as partner.
A 1N overcall with a singleton is also dangerous.
2♦ is a safe kludge.

---

[finesse157]

X to show a strong hand (and TOX) is reasonably common convention. What has gone wrong here is the Total Point valuation causing Gib to overvalue the hand.
TPV is a common failing of the Gib bidding system where shortages and solo honours can be overvalued.
In addition, the use of TPV before you have found a fit can cause even wilder point valuation as you are effectively giving value to shortage before you know that the shortage can be fully efficient. The most common effect of the failure of TPV is in mismatched NT contracts - high TPV but low trick-taking possibilities.

[pescetom]

 finesse157, on 2022-May-04, 06:37, said:

X to show a strong hand (and TOX) is reasonably common convention. What has gone wrong here is the Total Point valuation causing Gib to overvalue the hand.
TPV is a common failing of the Gib bidding system where shortages and solo honours can be overvalued.
In addition, the use of TPV before you have found a fit can cause even wilder point valuation as you are effectively giving value to shortage before you know that the shortage can be fully efficient. The most common effect of the failure of TPV is in mismatched NT contracts - high TPV but low trick-taking possibilities.

A shortage in the other major is a weakness, not a strength.

[pigpenz]

the Customer definitely bit on this one, 3 vs 1....the customer should get a refund

[helene_t]

Double with 6-6 in the minors and then pass partner s spade bid
https://www.bridgeba...CK|pc|CT|pc|D6|

[pescetom]

 helene_t, on 2022-May-27, 14:32, said:

Double with 6-6 in the minors and then pass partner s spade bid

At least you got 4+ spades 16- Total Points
I got 5+ spades 11 HCP, which comments itself.