[Cyberyeti]

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What do you do now ?

What is double by you ?

What would double have been by your partner ?

If it matters, 1♦ is opened in a weak NT context where if only 4 card suits are held you open 1♦ on all hands where you have diamonds, so partner has an unbalanced hand with 5+ diamonds unless 1444 and minimum or has a balanced hand with 15+ points.

[AL78]

I'd consider either double or 6♦, but this looks like a 30 point pack situation (although I have been burned by thinking that in similar auctions before), so assuming little spade wastage opposite, I am struggling to come up with many minimum opening hands opposite with long diamonds where slam has poor/no play (we could be off two aces I guess), so I think I will punt the slam. The opponents have a big spade fit so we have a decent fit and it is odds on in diamonds or maybe a double fit in the red suits.

[Gilithin]

X is convertible values, 4NT is takeout, other bids except 5/6♠ and 5NT are natural and non-forcing.

[LBengtsson]

Gilithin, on 2022-September-18, 19:14, said:

X is convertible values, 4NT is takeout, other bids except 5/6♠ and 5NT are natural and non-forcing.

Agree. But it only answers one question that Cyberyeti asked: 1. What do you do now? 2. What is double by you? 3. What would double have been by your partner?

My answer to 1. Is bid one more. Cannot see X getting us the best score. So best bid here imo is 4NT (takeout)
My answer to 3. X by partner after 3♠ shows extra values without an available bid.

Pre-emptive bidding by opps. is made to make your life difficult. You are not always going to get it right, but you have a good hand with some good controls so you have to bid. Gambling on slam straight away is poker bid imo.

[mikeh]

Very tough problem.

Double rates to collect 300 most days, unless west is nuts he’ll have a ruffing value

Partner will often pass the double…say he has Q AKx KJxxx xxxx or the like? Is he really supposed to bid? We’d happily be doubling without one of our aces, as an example.

So while I agree that double is ‘convertible values’ I’d reject it here.

To me the choice is between 4N and 5N, both take out. When/if I pull a club bid to 6D, I’m showing pretty much this shape.

If my opps are hyper aggressive I bid 4N….if that sounds paradoxical it’s because you can’t always be sure that partner has short spades. If my opps are relatively conservative bidders, I bid 5N.

If I have no opinion on that…it depends whether I feel I’m in Heat 1. If I am, I bid 5N. (That’s a reference to Zia’s view on how one thinks of one’s game during a session….in heat 1, everything works. There’s no scientific basis for it, but I’ve certainly had sessions like that.

[DavidKok]

I agree with mikeh's analysis and would default to 4NT. We've only bid at the 1-level, with a clean maximum partner might make a move even over a direct 5♦ (say, ♠-, ♥AKx, ♦KJxxxxx, ♣xxx, where partner can count 13 tricks if we have the aces of clubs and diamonds and the queen of hearts fifth) so 4NT then pulling (to 5♦ was my plan) already suggests more than that. If partner really has 0-1 spades they can see we have an issue and take charge, and if partner has 2 I don't mind staying low. I would not be surprised to find we're off 1-2 spades and maybe an ace, for an average of 2 quick tricks.

[michel444]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-September-18, 16:33, said:

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What do you do now ?

What is double by you ?

What would double have been by your partner ?

If it matters, 1♦ is opened in a weak NT context where if only 4 card suits are held you open 1♦ on all hands where you have diamonds, so partner has an unbalanced hand with 5+ diamonds unless 1444 and minimum or has a balanced hand with 15+ points.

I like the preemtive bid !
for me is was a clear double optional
I did not consider 4 NT as T/O
but its clear to me now it cant be Blackwood
i still think double the best option
partner is unlikely to pass he will bid club diamond or support heart

[Cyberyeti]

Partner has x, AK, KJ10xxx, xxxx so anything that gets to 6♦ is the winner, opps are 7114/3532 so a heart contract is not a success and you're only taking 100 out of 4♠x.

[AL78]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-September-19, 02:00, said:

Partner has x, AK, KJ10xxx, xxxx so anything that gets to 6♦ is the winner, opps are 7114/3532 so a heart contract is not a success and you're only taking 100 out of 4♠x.

I got lucky this time. I don't have clear agreements with partners against pre-empts at that level hence the punt.

[Douglas43]

At pairs, I would double and lead a trump, hoping for 500. Slam may be on but getting there is not easy. I think most pairs will be in game, or defending.
At teams 5♦ or 4NT as there is still space for partner to go on.

[Cyberyeti]

AL78, on 2022-September-19, 02:25, said:

I got lucky this time. I don't have clear agreements with partners against pre-empts at that level hence the punt.

Partner could easily have K, Kx, KJxxxx, QJxx where you don't want to be in 6, and you might not beat 4♠.

[Gilithin]

mikeh, on 2022-September-18, 21:14, said:

To me the choice is between 4N and 5N, both take out. When/if I pull a club bid to 6D, I’m showing pretty much this shape.

I deliberately left the meaning of 5NT out of the previous post and think the theoretical discussion here is as interesting as the hand itself. My first thought was that this is obviously pick-a-slam but as I thought about it, I realised quickly that this does not really have any advantage over bidding 4NT and raising partner's 5♦/♥ or bidding 5NT/6♦ over partner's 5♣. So it seems to me that either 4NT+raise or 5NT should have some grand slam interest. Something like 5♠ = GSI with no ♠ loser and 5NT = GSI with a ♠ loser perhaps? (or the reverse if you denial cue). Is there some expert standard here Mike or is it just for individual pairs to have personal agreements on the differences?

[mikeh]

Certainly I think it normal that 5S rather than 5N should be a slam force with first round control, allowing opener all kinds of options. Opener is still relatively unlimited since he’d need a very good hand to bid over 3S, hence 5S allows for grand ambitions.

As to 4N then 6D (over 5m) really having the same meaning as an immediate 5N: I’ve never seen this discussed.

I’d always bid 5N pick a slam, if I were forcing to slam on this auction, rather than create problems for partner. While such problems will be rare, say he has a spade void and AKx KJxxxx Qxxx

Over 4N some might consider 5S since if partner thinks we belong at the 5 level, maybe we belong in slam. Say he hesitates then bids 5D (or 5C) and we raise to slam on a slightly weaker hand. I think we’ve created a problem since his slow 5D suggests extra values. I’m probably being paranoid about this, but I don’t see any gain from the slow route.

Thus when and if I’m driving to slam, I’ll make it clear by bidding 5N.

Btw, I think it was David who suggested, if I read his post correctly, that the difference between 5D and 4N then 5D up is strength. I disagree. I think 4N then 5D brings hearts into play, promising at least five. An immediate 5D would, imo, deny five hearts while showing the same desire to play at the five level.

[DavidKok]

I think if partner had bid clubs, 4NT then correcting 5♣ to 5♦ brings hearts into play. Since partner opened diamonds either route sets trumps for me, I'm not fishing for a heart fit if I have a diamond fit and we're going to the 5-level regardless, so to me the primary distinction is slam interest. Also partner has the option of bidding 5♥ in response to 4NT, so 5♣ tends to deny 4-card support (although I'd bid 4♥ over 3♠ with most hands with 4-card support anyway).

Or, working backwards, I think heart-diamond two suiters need a way to distinguish strength and will play fine in 5♦ even if partner has some support for hearts, and if the hand isn't a red two suiter double is almost always better than 4NT (certainly we'd have clubs on any other hand that bids 4NT, so we don't pull).