[straube]

Please comment on North and South's bidding. All vul imps


............................AKxxx
............................Txxx
............................xx
............................xx
xxxx..................................................void
Qx.....................................................void
Kxx...................................................AQJTxxxx
QJxx.................................................AKxxx
............................QJxx
............................AKJxxxx
............................void
............................xx

North deals

P 5D 5H 6D dbl all pass

Do you agree with South's 5H?
Do you agree with North's dbl?
Should South pull to 6H after the double?

[P_Marlowe]

#1 5H is ok, the alternative is pass, but not really
#2 X is ok, North is (semi) bal., has 2 (presumably) cashing tricks in an unbid suit
#3 Why should South pull? The 6D bid indicates that he cna count only on 1 heart trick,
but 6H, can be expensive as well, he may loose a haert trick, and he is missing 4
to tricks in the black suits, -5 red is not cheap, and 6D may go down.

As it is, I am not sure, I would have found the 6D bid, in fact the only merrit I see it has,
it worked.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[straube]

Thanks Marlowe.

North's criticism of South's bid was that it was essentially preempting a preempt and had no outside card. Probably okay at favorable vulnerability but when both red, South should have pulled the double since he was joking around. South's feedback to North was that with four-card support he should have thought more to compete to 6H which actually makes on a non-club lead due to the double fit.

[foobar]

P_Marlowe, on 2023-September-27, 02:28, said:

#1 5H is ok, the alternative is pass, but not really
#2 X is ok, North is (semi) bal., has 2 (presumably) cashing tricks in an unbid suit
#3 Why should South pull? The 6D bid indicates that he cna count only on 1 heart trick,
but 6H, can be expensive as well, he may loose a haert trick, and he is missing 4
to tricks in the black suits, -5 red is not cheap, and 6D may go down.

+1 to all of the above.

[mikeh]

P_Marlowe, on 2023-September-27, 02:28, said:

#1 5H is ok, the alternative is pass, but not really
#2 X is ok, North is (semi) bal., has 2 (presumably) cashing tricks in an unbid suit
#3 Why should South pull? The 6D bid indicates that he cna count only on 1 heart trick,
but 6H, can be expensive as well, he may loose a haert trick, and he is missing 4
to tricks in the black suits, -5 red is not cheap, and 6D may go down.

As it is, I am not sure, I would have found the 6D bid, in fact the only merrit I see it has,
it worked.

With kind regards
Marlowe

North made a terrible double. I think 6H is clear, but it would have been a better problem had we seen only the north hand and auction to 6D

Why do I say it was a terrible double?

10xxx in hearts opposite a partner who bid 5H. Just how many heart tricks does he expect?

Sure, he has AK in spades and a reasonable hope that they will cash, but who is on lead? I’d give extremely long odds that partner is leading a heart. There may be time for spades later but south can have his 5H bid and still have the opps with 12 minor suit winners.

I doubt that many good imp players would pass or double 6D. 6H puts significant pressure on the opps, plus it makes on the ‘wrong’ lead. Now, that might lead to complete disaster should the opps ‘save’ in 7D and east may well do so. But that’s not a realistic worry for north at his call over 6D.

Btw, I think west’s choices over 5H are 6D or pass….pass only if he fears bidding might prompt north to bid a slam that west can’t beat, otherwise 6D seems obvious

As for criticizing the 5H bid, as apparently north did…gimme a break! 5H is one of the clearest imp actions I’ve seen in a long time. Defend 5D? Not in this lifetime. Can it go for a number? Obviously the answer is yes. But every time I step out of bed something bad could happen. However, staying in bed 24/7 ain’t good either, and nor is passing 5D with 4=7=0=2 and values in my suits.

As for pulling the double? That’s even worse analysis than claiming that 5H was preempting over a preempt. North was likely criticizing because he knew, consciously or otherwise, that he made an awful double. Btw, if he expected a BETTER hand from south, wtf is he doing doubling, as opposed to 6H????? He has a side AK and very long trump and he’s criticizing his partner?

[Winstonm]

I think this unfair as we don’t know agreements. The double here for Bob and I meant I would prefer to bid on but partner with xx AKQJxx, Kx, AJ10 could convert.

If the agreement is standard the double is silly.

[mikeh]

Winstonm, on 2023-September-27, 15:50, said:

I think this unfair as we don’t know agreements. The double here for Bob and I meant I would prefer to bid on but partner with xx AKQJxx, Kx, AJ10 could convert.

If the agreement is standard the double is silly.

I would expect that the OP would have mentioned if they had such an agreement. What I think is unfair is to criticize a post on the basis that maybe the OP and his partner had a specific agreement, perhaps making double something other than ‘penalty’ but chose, when seeking opinions on the auction, not to mention it. I tend to take a poster at face value and to respond accordingly. Maybe you should do the same, rather than making up grounds for objecting to my post based on non-existent special agreements. Especially given that you seem to agree that, absent some undisclosed, non-existent and non-standard treatment, the double is ‘silly’.

Oh, and of course one must, as north, cater to partner holding a diamond trick…the Kx (!!!!) on this auction. Seriously? What kind of game do you play in where second seat opens 5D vulnerable, is raised to 6 after third seat showed values, and you hold xx in diamonds and AK in a side suit. Sorry if you think that’s an unfair comment, lol, but where I come from, if a good pair did this against me, I’d bet that partner holds, on average, maybe 0.67 diamonds😀

That’s not to say that your agreement is ‘silly’. I think a number of pairs would argue that the 5H call created a force. I’m not a big fan of that kind of agreement….it sometimes leaves one having to choose between two equally disastrous calls (doubling a contract one can’t beat or going for a number in a hopeless high level ‘save’) but players better than me have been known to use this treatment (although I’ve only seen it in action at unfavourable). If the 5H call created a force, then the Meckwell inversion makes sense to me…pass says I’d like to double, double says I’d like to bid.

[straube]

We didn’t have a special agreement for double.

[Winstonm]

mikeh, on 2023-September-27, 16:55, said:

I would expect that the OP would have mentioned if they had such an agreement. What I think is unfair is to criticize a post on the basis that maybe the OP and his partner had a specific agreement, perhaps making double something other than ‘penalty’ but chose, when seeking opinions on the auction, not to mention it. I tend to take a poster at face value and to respond accordingly. Maybe you should do the same, rather than making up grounds for objecting to my post based on non-existent special agreements. Especially given that you seem to agree that, absent some undisclosed, non-existent and non-standard treatment, the double is ‘silly’.

Oh, and of course one must, as north, cater to partner holding a diamond trick…the Kx (!!!!) on this auction. Seriously? What kind of game do you play in where second seat opens 5D vulnerable, is raised to 6 after third seat showed values, and you hold xx in diamonds and AK in a side suit. Sorry if you think that’s an unfair comment, lol, but where I come from, if a good pair did this against me, I’d bet that partner holds, on average, maybe 0.67 diamonds😀

That’s not to say that your agreement is ‘silly’. I think a number of pairs would argue that the 5H call created a force. I’m not a big fan of that kind of agreement….it sometimes leaves one having to choose between two equally disastrous calls (doubling a contract one can’t beat or going for a number in a hopeless high level ‘save’) but players better than me have been known to use this treatment (although I’ve only seen it in action at unfavourable). If the 5H call created a force, then the Meckwell inversion makes sense to me…pass says I’d like to double, double says I’d like to bid.

I don’t see that I criticized the post, only noting that there was no agreement specified but knowing understandings of what is thought normal can fluctuate.

With that said, I still see the double as “unthinking” if silly is too harsh. What else can partner have but heart and club cards?