[paulsim]

Hi all,

Advancing a Takeout double in balancing position

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do you use a borrowed king?

A.- One of a suit: 1♥ 1♠ 1♦ are 0-11 or around?

B.- 1NT is 11-13 or still 8-10 or 8-11 like direct position?


C.- Would be different ranges if the balancing double is a passed hand?

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Thanks all
Kind Regards,
Paul_S

[DavidKok]

I'll write a longer response, Helene and I recently discussed this topic as well.

Personally I really dislike the 'borrowed king' theory. The idea is that partner won't be able to overcall with many relatively strong hands, so that we might still have a good score even if the balancing hand is a bit weak. So we 'borrow a king', i.e. lower all our requirements by 3 HCP or so, and in return trust partner to treat their hand about 3 HCP weaker and respond lower compared to when facing a normal double or bid.
In my experience this approach does far more harm than good, and stems from a different era of bridge. We overcall lighter, make takeout doubles on hands with neither shape nor decent strength, even open lighter. As a result, 'pass' becomes more defined. Let's go through partner's options over 1♣ (I am giving my own system below, if yours is very different that might play a role here):

• Pass: none of the below. In particular: 1) any weak (0-8) hand not worth a weak jump overcall; or 2) 9-11 balanced no 5 card suit; or 3) 12-14 (semi)balanced, no 5 card suit, not 4-3 or better in the majors; or 4) a penalty pass of clubs.
  
• Double: 1) 11+ with 4-3 or better in the majors, desire to be in the auction and no other bid; or 2) a hand too strong for an overcall (typically 18+).
  
• 1♦: 5(+)♦, approx 7-17 HCP, if 7-8 then needs a decent suit.
  
• 1♥: 5(+)♥, approx 7-17 HCP, very little other requirements.
  
• 1♠: 5(+)♠, approx 7-17 HCP, very little other requirements.
  
• 1NT: 15-18 balanced with a club stopper.
  
• 2♣: 55+ in the majors, approx 7-20 HCP.
  
• 2♦: 5(+)♦, approx 4-10 HCP, offensively oriented hand.
  
• 2♥: 5(+)♥, approx 4-10 HCP, offensively oriented hand.
  
• 2♠: 5(+)♠, approx 4-10 HCP, offensively oriented hand.
  
• 2NT: 55+ in the red suits, approx 9-20 HCP.
  
• 3♣: 55+ in the pointed suits, approx 9-20 HCP.

Some of the specialised bids don't matter that much, and most people will require a 6-card suit for a weak jump overcall, but it's really the 1-level responses that matter.
If partner didn't have an overcall and didn't have a takeout double apparently there's a hole in one of the majors, so what are we aiming for by keeping the auction open? Once in a blue moon partner has the penalty pass, but realistically partner is limited to the weak notrump type hand with a doubleton in a major. If you hold, say, 8-9 HCP and no five card suit, do you really want to push the opponents to their likely major suit fit, or at any rate push them to the long suit of the weak hand? We probably don't even have the balance of strength. In my experience most of the time opener will have some 19+-count and responder was afraid of showing their suit and being taken too seriously, and stretching to keep the auction open primarily helps them find their best contract.
The trick to competing is to compete immediately, with light requirements for overcalls and takeout doubles and openings. The main reasons are that you might not get another bid and also the opponents are most likely to rescue you if you make your mistakes early, while they haven't described their strength and shape yet. As a bonus such aggressive action relieves partner of the need to take light action in balancing position.
Personally I think the case is actually far stronger than this - even if you play sound overcalls, healthy takeout doubles, and sound openings, I think it is likely anti-percentage to then come in light later in these balancing positions. Especially over their 1m opening, where partner had all the freedom in the world to compete and also it is unlikely to be the best spot for the opponents.

I would personally therefore not shift your ranges by much, if at all. If you do follow the 'borrowed king' approach you'd shift all your responsive ranges up by 3 HCP, to not hang partner.
As for the exact ranges and the system itself - there are several different approaches to continuing after partner's takeout double at the 1-level. If you are curious I'm happy to share mine, but be aware that different options exist.

[PrecisionL]

Well said, David!
My only addition is that we play the Herbert response over the takeout double in 4th seat also.

p p p (1♣) X (pass) 1♦ = Negative, 0-5 hcp,

1M = 4+-cds and 6+ hcp,

1NT = 4+♦ 6+ hcp (Replacement for the Herbert negative suit)
2♣ = 10+ artificial.

Adapted from the Overcall Structure (Design).

[mw64ahw]

Playing The Overcall Structure I can borrow more than a king. When not I'll take a similar approach and then be broadly in line with the two posters above.

[nullve]

DavidKok, on 2024-July-01, 05:17, said:

In my experience this approach does far more harm than good, and stems from a different era of bridge.

What era are you talking about?

[mikeh]

I largely, but not entirely, agree with David.

Btw, I’d never heard of the borrowed king notion…even after 50 years I’m still learning something new (or old).

I disagree with David’s recitation of the options available to the player sitting over the 1C bid. Yes, everyone bids now on hands that, historically, were clear passes, but I shudder at the notion that one overcalls on any hand containing a 5 card non-club suit and 7+ hcp.

Suit rank counts, btw, as does vulnerability.

Overcalling 1D on marginal hands with weak suits is rarely a good idea. 1D takes away nothing from the opps….indeed, unless responder was planning on bidding 1D, your overcall expands their bidding space (never a good idea against competent opponents) by giving them the ability to show both majors in one call…double (ironically, in my partnership we don’t play negative doubles after a 1D overcall….we use transfers but most use negative doubles). So I don’t overcall 1D on Qxxxx and an 8 count.

1H….I’ll overcall more freely than I’d bid 1D. 1S….I’ll overcall more freely than I’d bid 1H….why? Bidding space…not a topic one often sees discussed but it’s extremely important. If the opps have spades, they have the master suit and neither red suit overcall destroys bidding space. If we have spades, otoh, 1S can be very disruptive, especially if partner can raise. On a related note, this is why most experienced players will stretch to overcall 2C after a 1D opening….it can be really hard on the opps when responder has values, only one major, and either not long enough a suit to bid 2M or not strong enough.

Subject to those quibbles, I agree with much of what David wrote.

All of this impacts the range of hand types that one might have and pass 1C…..but otherwise I agree with David.

[DavidKok]

I think you misread, or I explained it poorly. I am not overcalling on any hand within that range, and indeed the pass deliberately contains an overlapping range for 0-8 unsuitable for other overcalls. And 1♦ specifically also mentions a suit requirement near the lower end of its range. I don't think I'd easily pass a 9-count with a 5cM when RHO opened 1♣, but I'm sure if I try a bit I can find hands that are worth clear downgrades into that 0-8 range. As always, point ranges are just an indication of the nominal strength range I expect, and on any individual deal I rely on my hand evaluation to settle the nuances. The overcalls are more accurately described as "starting at 7 HCP with a decent suit, or 9 HCP with a poor suit, and if the suit is diamonds we need extra values, shape or suit quality for compensation". That being said these standards are dropping every year as well. Here is an example:

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Your call? What is the minimum change I would have to make to the hand for your answer to change (presumably between pass and 1♠, but I welcome other suggestions)?

[mw64ahw]

 mikeh, on 2024-July-04, 08:01, said:

...
1H….I'll overcall more freely than I'd bid 1D. 1S….I'll overcall more freely than I'd bid 1H….why? Bidding space…not a topic one often sees discussed but it's extremely important. If the opps have spades, they have the master suit and neither red suit overcall destroys bidding space. If we have spades, otoh, 1S can be very disruptive, especially if partner can raise. On a related note, this is why most experienced players will stretch to overcall 2C after a 1D opening
…

Hi Mike
With regards to bidding space do you have a discourse on Takeout X & 15-18NT versus NT takeout & Power X?