[jillybean]

open this?

V vs. N. MP

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[mw64ahw]

1♥ now what?

[TMorris]

I would open but I can imagine it getting some people too high, opposite a misfitting weak nt for example.

[jillybean]

I hope it is a 1H opening for everyone, but I know it's not.

Before I continue with the actual hand, I'm going to take a little side trip. What is your bid if partner responds 1S?

[mw64ahw]

If my partner bids 1♠ it's a relay. My response is 1N as balanced or 4+ ♦.

If 1♠ is natural you have a choice of 2♦ or 2♠. I bid 2♠ with the ♣ singleton.

[bluenikki]

jillybean, on 2024-September-26, 07:03, said:

open this?

V vs. N. MP

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In 1956, this 13-pointer was an "optional" opening. With 2.5 quick tricks and working tens, everyone but Roth-Stoners would open.

Its CCCC is 14.1

[DavidKok]

The hand is easily worth an opening, even a sound opening, despite the 11HCP. But these days we're more aggressive and would open with far less.

1♥, raising 1♠ to 2♠.

[jdiana]

I would also open the hand 1♥ but I'd be concerned about my rebid. I understand 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♠ but this gets into the question of raising responder with 3-card support. That's something my partner and I never addressed satisfactorily.

At the risk of going down a side street, most of what I've seen on that question assumes 1m - 1M. Are the considerations different for 1♥ - 1♠ ? Does it require having methods like spiral raises, or would you do it anyway?

[DavidKok]

jdiana, on 2024-September-26, 13:59, said:

I would also open the hand 1♥ but I'd be concerned about my rebid. I understand 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♠ but this gets into the question of raising responder with 3-card support. That's something my partner and I never addressed satisfactorily.

At the risk of going down a side street, most of what I've seen on that question assumes 1m - 1M. Are the considerations different for 1♥ - 1♠ ? Does it require having methods like spiral raises, or would you do it anyway?

The considerations are different for 1♥-1♠, but in a somewhat surprising way. Regrettably some of this depends on your style for responding 1♠ to 1♥, and I expect I'll catch several "well, we do not play it that way" responses. Too bad.
With 3(+) hearts I would bypass longer spades to show support immediately. Support with support. With a simple raise I'd bid 2♥, with a limit raise or minimum game force I'd bid 2NT Maas, with slam interest I'd start with 2♣. The problem with starting with 1♠ is that after many responses you won't be able to show your support and strength anymore - the worst ones are the GF ones on 1♥-1♠; 2♦ (now you have to bid 3♣ first and might not get a chance to show your hand below 4♥) and the limit raises on 1♥-1♠; 3m and 1♥-1♠; 2NT.
Furthermore, with a GF 5(+)m4♠ I'd start with the 2/1. It is a great description of my shape to bid 2m and then spades with that hand type. Some go a step further and also bid 2/1 with a balanced GF with 4 spades (and, by exclusion from my category above, 2 hearts, so 4=2=(43)) but I do not.
As a consequence, 1♠ is much more often 5(+) cards compared to the 1m-1♠ auction. The frequency of having exactly 4 is still quite high, but several hand types with exactly 4 spades have been removed from the bid. It is therefore more often winning to raise with 3-card support.

Taking this hand as an example, when does a 2♦ rebid win? We can't catch an 8-card fit in hearts anymore. If we have a 7-card fit in diamonds I'd rather not take the club ruffs in the hand with long trumps. So the main condition where we win is if responder has 4 spades, at most 2 hearts, 4(+) diamonds and not enough to force to game. Either partner is holding a 4=0=4=5 or the opponents have at least an 8-card club fit, in which case the opponents might (probably should, according to the LAW) compete to 3♣.
Meanwhile 2♠ has some great upsides. Partner can pass with any minimum, and can evaluate their hand with a non-minimum. Hands like ♠KQxxx, ♥Jx, ♦xx, ♣Axxx are a real problem on 1♥-1♠; 2♦ - probably you rebid 2NT, and now the spade fit is lost (or are you bidding again as opener without knowing of the fifth spade?) and with it the opportunity to re-evaluate while 4♠ is excellent.

You don't need to play spiral for this. Responder can just bid 2NT or 3NT with only 4 spades, and opener can clarify the fit from there. 1♥-1♠; 2♠-3NT is a choice-of-games bid without any special agreements to the contrary. In fact, I think I've had more accidents in partnerships where we agreed to play Spiral and I made a natural rebid than in those where we didn't play Spiral here.

[jillybean]

I agree with what you say about spiral and I'm relieved when partners no longer suggest we add it to the CC.

I too like 1H 1S 2S but it does go against many who must have 4 to support.

On this hand, after you open 1H, partner is going to bid a GF 2NT.
You'll cooperate showing club shortage and all roads lead to 6

Not all players holding the South hand opened the bidding. I think it's brave call to get 6 after partner passes, 1H 4H

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[mikeh]

I do play a form of spiral but I’d raise to 2S even if I didn’t. The hand is almost strong enough for 1H 1S 2D, intending to bid 2S over 2H…indeed, if I knew that partner would bid 2H over 2D, I’d do it. But, of course, he might trip me up by bidding 2N or 3N, and 2N (in particular) doesn’t deny 5 spades but my 3S bid is now forcing and this isn’t the hand for a 22-23 hcp 4-3 spade fit or a misfitting 22-23 hcp 3N. Something like Qxx AKxxx AQJx x would warrant the two step.

Also, since partner knows (at least, my regular partners know) that I raise on weak 3541 hands, bidding 2D causes issues over a gf 3C bid. My 3S suggests this shape but definite implies a stronger hand and partner may go slamming, only to be disappointed by dummy.

[thepossum]

Missed the thread and am avoidig reading it
Usually I would open 1H and occasionally pass and wait

Reading the thread now. Possibly risk rebid 2D and hope it works out

[jillybean]

thepossum, on 2024-September-26, 17:33, said:

Missed the thread and am avoidig reading it
Usually I would open 1H and occasionally pass and wait

Reading the thread now. Possibly risk rebid 2D and hope it works out

I've tried pass and wait, still waiting for my bid.

[johnu]

jillybean, on 2024-September-26, 16:19, said:

Not all players holding the South hand opened the bidding. I think it's brave call to get 6 after partner passes, 1H 4H

Would a "bridge" player respond 4♥ after passing originally? I don't know any. A Jacoby 2NT or a splinter bid seems like a huge improvement in hand evaluation.

[jillybean]

johnu, on 2024-September-27, 01:41, said:

Would a "bridge" player respond 4♥ after passing originally? I don't know any. A Jacoby 2NT or a splinter bid seems like a huge improvement in hand evaluation.

J2nt is not on by a passed hand, for me
Splinter gets the auction going in the right direction, but I doubt that anyone who initially passed would have these methods available.

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2024-September-27, 08:21, said:

J2nt is not on by a passed hand, for me
Splinter gets the auction going in the right direction, but I doubt that anyone who initially passed would have these methods available.

It seems weird to me to have splinter off for a passed hand.

[Tramticket]

pescetom, on 2024-September-27, 08:44, said:

It seems weird to me to have splinter off for a passed hand.

You pass initially with:

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(Maybe you don't like opening a weak two with a good four-card major on the side)

Would you really find a splinter to be weird?

[DavidKok]

To be clear, you are both saying you would play splinters here. As would I, though this new example hand is not a perfect example. A splinter might still be the best description, but starting with something like Drury would also be fine. Very curious that the opponents are not in the auction while we have passed and then discovered an 11-card fit.
Lastly I personally think opening light in third seat is not all it's cracked up to be, so there is less risk 'suddenly' forcing to the 4-level compared to styles where the opening is frequently light or a 4-card suit. If the latter is your style that might be a good reason to use alternative methods as a passed hand. Keep in mind you can always Drury-then-splinter, if you wish.

[jdiana]

jillybean, on 2024-September-26, 16:19, said:

I agree with what you say about spiral and I'm relieved when partners no longer suggest we add it to the CC.

I too like 1H 1S 2S but it does go against many who must have 4 to support.

On this hand, after you open 1H, partner is going to bid a GF 2NT.
You'll cooperate showing club shortage and all roads lead to 6

Not all players holding the South hand opened the bidding. I think it's brave call to get 6 after partner passes, 1H 4H

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I actually think 4♣ (splinter) would be a better response than J2NT here. We might get to 6♥ after that but I'm not sure. It makes here but a lot of things went right - hearts split, the K♠ and K♦ are both in the right place.

[DavidKok]

All you need for slam to make is the hearts split or onside king (together about 76%) - you can concede one spade and ruff out the minor suit losers. And even if the heart king is offside there's chances to set up the diamonds or play on a pointed suit squeeze, though this requires some fortunate positions of the non-heart cards.