[Cyberyeti]

---

Do you agree with your actions so far ? Are you going on ?

Partner showed either a good raise to 4♥ which he then confirmed when he pulled 3N or a hand that was looking for a spade stop

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

would a 4C (4D) bid instead of 4H have shown a club (diamond) control?

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mike777]

Slightly prefer pass to 3H.

[DavidKok]

I agree with the auction so far.

Tough call. I will go on and bid 4♠, showing a control and inviting partner to ask for key cards. Our hand is mostly aces and we do not have an unexpected source of tricks. I therefore want partner to evaluate our slam prospects.

An awkward auction. Preempts work.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2024-November-07, 14:08, said:

I agree with the auction so far.

Tough call. I will go on and bid 4♠, showing a control and inviting partner to ask for key cards. Our hand is mostly aces and we do not have an unexpected source of tricks. I therefore want partner to evaluate our slam prospects.

An awkward auction. Preempts work.

4♠ would be kickback, 4N spade control

[Cyberyeti]

P_Marlowe, on 2024-November-07, 12:38, said:

Hi,

would a 4C (4D) bid instead of 4H have shown a club (diamond) control?

With kind regards
Marlowe

Unclear, presumably in partner's mind not as I'm sure he has one of them if not both

[DavidKok]

Cyberyeti, on 2024-November-07, 14:28, said:

4♠ would be kickback, 4N spade control

Kickback is one of the few conventions that I refuse to play. I'm out.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2024-November-07, 14:36, said:

Kickback is one of the few conventions that I refuse to play. I'm out.

What do you play, turbo or something, I just hate not being able to ask for the trump Q for lack of space

[DavidKok]

As I posted that I had a shocking idea - would partner's 4♠ over 3NT also have been Kickback? And what about 4♠ over 3♥?

I play 4NT as Roman Key Card Blackwood on specific auctions. In general I think people are far too eager to ask for key cards, and extend this desire into their system design too much. Key cards are way down on the list of requirements for slam bidding, so only allocate bids to it once the more pressing questions have been answered.

I've never played turbo but some strong players in my social circle have, they told me they find it not much better or worse than other key card methods. Likely one day I'll try it.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2024-November-07, 14:40, said:

As I posted that I had a shocking idea - would partner's 4♠ over 3NT also have been Kickback? And what about 4♠ over 3♥?

I play 4NT as Roman Key Card Blackwood on specific auctions. In general I think people are far too eager to ask for key cards, and extend this desire into their system design too much. Key cards are way down on the list of requirements for slam bidding, so only allocate bids to it once the more pressing questions have been answered.

I've never played turbo but some strong players in my social circle have, they told me they find it not much better or worse than other key card methods. Likely one day I'll try it.

I think 4♠ would be KC whenever partner bid it after 3♥, the bid that would change meaning is 4N (spade void voidwood if a jump)

[DavidKok]

Sorry, I am uncomfortable with these tools and their negative inferences. Personally I much prefer a different set of agreements for looking for slams, and I don't have anything sensible to contribute.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2024-November-07, 14:56, said:

Sorry, I am uncomfortable with these tools and their negative inferences. Personally I much prefer a different set of agreements for looking for slams, and I don't have anything sensible to contribute.

I actually posted the hand because partner and I weren't 100% sure what 1♦-(2♠)-3♥-3♠-3N-4m showed and whether what it showed was different if the m was ♣/♦

I didn't want to pinpoint that we didn't have a club control between us and get a MP bottom when opps cashed however many clubs stood up

[mike777]

😊
So what happens with my pass over 2S?

[Cyberyeti]

mike777, on 2024-November-07, 15:37, said:

😊
So what happens with my pass over 2S?

not 100% sure, you won't play there, what you intending to do if partner doubles ?

[mike777]

Pass

[mike777]

-

[Cyberyeti]

mike777, on 2024-November-07, 15:44, said:

Pass

If I had the 10 or 9 of spades, I might do that.

Before I reveal if that would have been successful:

The hands are: (with our auction)

---

It occurred to me at the table that singleton 10 or 9 are twice as common as stiff Q, and that leading the J from hand on the first round might be the right play, preparing to look spectacularly stupid if this lost to a stiff Q. Cashing the A first is not as good as I probably can't now ruff a spade.

[Tramticket]

Cyberyeti, on 2024-November-07, 14:28, said:

4♠ would be kickback, 4N spade control

I tend to side with David. It is argued that Kick-back creates space, but this is an example of an auction where it has created a problem and denied us the space to cue bid; show some slam interest and invite partner to cooperate. Asking for aces with two fast club losers is not ideal, but cue-bidding spades and denying partner the chance to ask for aces is horrible.

Advancing over 4H is marginal anyway, given that partner might easily hold an unhelpful holding opposite our singleton diamond. Given the methods, I pass 4H.

[mw64ahw]

I prefer Kickbo assuming the sequence is slam going (perhaps by-passing 4♣ is a warning not to progress beyond 4♥) so 4♠ shows even keycards. You can then control bid stopping in 5♥ if need be. Higher bids are control bids with odd keycards.

[mw64ahw]

DavidKok, on 2024-November-07, 14:08, said:

I agree with the auction so far.

Tough call. I will go on and bid 4♠, showing a control and inviting partner to ask for key cards. Our hand is mostly aces and we do not have an unexpected source of tricks. I therefore want partner to evaluate our slam prospects.

An awkward auction. Preempts work.

Do you assume 3N is serious/non-serious or an alternative place to play?