[mike777]

(1C)=P=P=X
(1S)=X?

If it matters opp are vul.

Generally accepted meaning of x over 1s bid by opponents

[DavidKok]

To me this is a takeout double of spades, neither promising nor denying the strength to make a penalty pass of 1♣.

[apollo1201]

If you had a penalty pass of 1S, you probably would have bid 1S yourself the round before. Then it is T/O for most.

The tricky thing is if opener repeats their suit. Minor or major might also give different answers.

[mikl_plkcc]

Takeout (responsive) double. Probably showing 5 ♦, 4 ♥, and at most 2 ♠.

Holding anything longer, a first round overcall would probably be made.

[mikeh]

Strangely, I don’t think I’ve ever seen this auction. However, it strikes me that it’s very playable as penalty.

The notion that one can’t hold a penalty double because one would have overcalled 1S makes zero sense. Didn’t anyone notice that partner balanced with a double? Does anybody think that the balancing double denied spades? Do we really need a spade stack to be beating this, if partner sits for it.

I’d expect the doubler of 1S to hold good clubs and a 4 card spade suit. The balancing doubler will usually hold 3-4 spades…if he holds fewer then he has a big hand, intending to reopen with double then bid a suit or some number of notrump. He knows we didn’t overcall so if he has a big hand with short spades he can pull the double.

K10xx xx xx KQ109x. What would you bid?

Now, in my main partnership we have the meta agreement that our first low level double is always takeout, so with that partner, that’s what it would be.

But I see no compelling reason that, absent such a rule, this double is takeout.

[DavidKok]

Back in the day people used to play that after partner doubled 1m, our double of 1M showed length and cards in that suit. An example auction is (1♦)-X-(1♠)-X. The idea was fourfold:

• We can bid 2♥ with actual hearts and 2♣ with actual clubs, so a takeout double isn't as necessary to have compared to other auctions.
  
• If we can announce the misfit cheaply it will help partner not overcompete.
  
• By sharing our strength and some of our shape we can sometimes penalise the opponents if we hold the balance of strength.
  
• This 1♠ bid is considered a 'baby psych', and the double exposes it.

When I learned the basics of bidding I was told that the second double showed exactly four spades for this reason (with 5+ we instead bid 2♠ natural). However, time has caught up to this penalty-oriented double much like it did to all others. Initial takeout doubles are weaker and more nebulous now than they used to be, especially if the opponents opened a minor suit. Reason 1 has dropped in priority: if we have 4 hearts or diamonds, or even 5 diamonds, there is no longer a guarantee of a fit at the 2-level. Note that playing this double as takeout denies enough shape to compete to the 2-level solo, so it frequently also contains some spades. Reason 3 has become more complicated but less frequent - people double on nothing now, but they also open and respond on nothing - it's not clear who has the balance of strength, even if we have (say) 8 HCP in fourth seat. Reason 4 has all but disappeared, people don't really psych anymore. Reason 2 still stands, but pass also warns partner not to compete. A small cost to get a useful takeout double in return.

Combining the above provided enough reason for me to move away from the traditional meaning of the card-showing double here, and instead move towards takeout. There are two more reasons, one good and one so-so:

• On the example auction (1♣)-P-(P)-X; (1♠)-X, many partnerships permit light doubles in fourth seat to keep the auction open (or 'to protect a penalty pass'). I think this is a mistake, but that's neither here nor there. If you do play such a style then we need a correspondingly stronger hand to make a double now, as we might be in hot water if the second double is light. In particular, we also need length and strength in clubs for it to make sense, or they'll just run to their club fit and we won't be able to do anything. How often do you think you'll hold a not-too-weak hand with clubs and spades on this auction?
  
• Playing takeout doubles here is consistent, i.e. easy to remember. It's not a coincidence that takeout doubles have become more and more frequent in competitive bidding, and having a consistent rule can simplify these situations.

I listed a traditional auction to support the general arguments. I feel confident you've noticed that (1m)-X-(1M)-X and (1m)-P-(P)-X; (1M)-X are different auctions. To me, however, the same considerations of frequency and utility apply - even more so since partner was under more pressure to double.

[Huibertus]

I don't think there IS a generally accepted meaning. People play this as responsive to show the reds, as anti-psych saying "this is what I wanted to bid" (not "This is what I had to bid"), or as optional (I had a trap pass on 1♣, if you have enough defense agains 1♠, maybe we should penalize". For me the middle option makes most sense

[bluenikki]

DavidKok, on 2025-April-24, 01:11, said:

Reason 4 has all but disappeared, people don't really psych anymore.

But they do bid 1♠ over the double with 5432 in the suit, "ignoring the double." The purpose of the misdescribed penalty double is to reclaim our birthright to declare spades after opener pulls it.

[DavidKok]

bluenikki, on 2025-April-24, 06:07, said:

But they do bid 1♠ over the double with 5432 in the suit, "ignoring the double." The purpose of the misdescribed penalty double is to reclaim our birthright to declare spades after opener pulls it.

You mean the second and third reason I gave - defending when it is right, while competing if we have the spade fit? The motivations were roughly sorted in descending order of priority, so the fourth one is not the primary one.

[awm]

I’d play this double as penalty; we have a general agreement that if partner makes a takeout double and opponents bid a suit for which the double showed support, then double is penalty.

We don’t find a lot of utility in responsive doubles after partner makes a takeout double, especially when the two suits shown are of different ranks. On the other hand opponents bid bad suits on misfit auctions pretty often in my experience; it would not be unusual for opener to have a 4333 hand with fairly weak spades.

Note that these doubles are more like “we have more spades and points than them assuming you have a normal double” and not “I would’ve doubled a 1S opening for penalty on my own hand.”

[jillybean]

I like this agreement but I have never had this discussion with partner, who would understand it as take out.
Perhaps the thread should be moved from the N/B forum.