[jdonn]

xx JT98xxx xx xx, w/w imps, LHO deals
1NT P P 2♦
X P 3♦ P
P X P ?

2♦ showed hearts. What do you do if -
1 - You have no agreement about partner's double?
2 - Partner's double is penalty by agreement?

[rogerclee]

I would pull.

[ArtK78]

I would pull. Partner is very unlikely to have 5 tricks in hand, and even if he thinks he does, one of his tricks may be in hearts and it may not cash.

Partner may know that I can be very light for my balance, but he will never expect a hand like this one. If the pull is wrong, I will apologize, but I suspect that it is not the pull that got us into trouble, rather, it was my decision not to pass out 1NT.

[helene_t]

Did we have a penalty dbl of 1NT on our CC? Partner's failure to double 1NT suggest we had not, so he could have a balanced 19-point or something.

Anyway, unless we have agreed this double to be 110% penalty and he can expect a hand like this one, I pass. Basically agree with Art.

[ArcLight]

ArtK78, on Aug 28 2008, 07:29 AM, said:

I would pull. Partner is very unlikely to have 5 tricks in hand, and even if he thinks he does, one of his tricks may be in hearts and it may not cash.

Partner may know that I can be very light for my balance, but he will never expect a hand like this one. If the pull is wrong, I will apologize, but I suspect that it is not the pull that got us into trouble, rather, it was my decision not to pass out 1NT.

I think the misatke was pards double of 3♦.


I'd much rather thay play there than 1NT.
================================================

I can't imagine what pard is Xing on, as it can't be diamonds if LHO is penalty doubling them and RHO also has them. Does pard have AK in dimes?
RHO has less than 9 HCP, so pard has at least 13 HCP, probably 15. Or more if RHO has les, but then why is RHO bidding at the 3 level with nothing?

An X of 3 Diamonds is dangerous, as 3D can make. I will pull to 3H.

[brianshark]

What would partner's direct x of 1NT have been? One must wonder where all the points are on this deal.

I would pull because I am sure that pard is bidding on the expectation that we have a trick or two, and we have nothing but a long suit.

[peachy]

brianshark, on Aug 28 2008, 09:21 AM, said:

What would partner's direct x of 1NT have been? One must wonder where all the points are on this deal.

I would pull because I am sure that pard is bidding on the expectation that we have a trick or two, and we have nothing but a long suit.

Even without agreements to contrary, I think this is so obviously penalty that I won't pull. Partner knows what he is doing. Balancing after they open 1NT, esp. when direct Dbl is not penalty, is routinely done with weak hands and long suit because it normally pays. Also, I don't think partner expects two defensive tricks when we make an offensive move. Anyway, just my thoughts.

When the penalty is undiscussed and I play with someone whom I don't trust/don't know, I MIGHT pull (they might think HAK are cashing, for one...)

[Apollo81]

I would pull.

Let's say partner has a 15 count. He is probably expecting the pts to be 15-15-5-5 around the table with his tenaces over the NT opener. The points are more like 17-15-7-1, and some of partner's tenaces might be badly placed. It's quite unlikely he has a trump stack here. AND things are splitting well for them AND the opps will likely get guesses right if necessary.

[pclayton]

I think you need to pull. If pard had a real moose, we'd hear a redouble or something else over the double.

[jtfanclub]

helene_t, on Aug 28 2008, 07:47 AM, said:

Did we have a penalty dbl of 1NT on our CC? Partner's failure to double 1NT suggest we had not, so he could have a balanced 19-point or something.

Anyway, unless we have agreed this double to be 110% penalty and he can expect a hand like this one, I pass. Basically agree with Art.

I suspect partner has a good hand with short hearts. He didn't X because he can set 1NT lots but figured they would run out to hearts (my opps always do). If he passed now and they went to hearts later he could take out.

I would think that XX would ask my opinion, and pass followed by double doesn't. I'm not budging.

[brianshark]

I acknowledge that partner knows we may have a long suit with no tricks whatsoever. But if partner only doubles when he has 5+ certain tricks in his own hand, then he isn't doubling enough. He should dbl based on average expectency to determine if they are going off, and if we feel we have a hand that is a lot less than what partner might expect on average, then it is up to us to pull.

See Apollo's example of average case vs this particular case.

[jdonn]

Let me jump in to ask and answer some questions.

ArtK78, on Aug 28 2008, 07:29 AM, said:

Partner is very unlikely to have 5 tricks in hand, and even if he thinks he does, one of his tricks may be in hearts and it may not cash.

If he has the ace of hearts it's a trick. If he has the king of hearts why would he expect it to be a trick on defense?

helene_t, on Aug 28 2008, 07:47 AM, said:

Did we have a penalty dbl of 1NT on our CC?

No

Apollo81, on Aug 28 2008, 09:47 AM, said:

Let's say partner has a 15 count.  He is probably expecting the pts to be 15-15-5-5 around the table with his tenaces over the NT opener.  The points are more like 17-15-7-1, and some of partner's tenaces might be badly placed.  It's quite unlikely he has a trump stack here.  AND things are splitting well for them AND the opps will likely get guesses right if necessary.

If we can be balancing on this hand, why in hell would partner double on a 15 count without a trump stack where everything is breaking well for them??? To put another way, you gave a reasonable answer to 1. What about to 2?

pclayton, on Aug 28 2008, 09:51 AM, said:

I think you need to pull. If pard had a real moose, we'd hear a redouble or something else over the double.

He couldn't, that would have shown diamonds.

[pclayton]

jdonn, on Aug 28 2008, 07:28 AM, said:

pclayton, on Aug 28 2008, 09:51 AM, said:

I think you need to pull. If pard had a real moose, we'd hear a redouble or something else over the double.

He couldn't, that would have shown diamonds.

I play pass shows diamonds and redouble shows strength.

What do you play a pass as Josh?

[jdonn]

pclayton, on Aug 28 2008, 10:32 AM, said:

jdonn, on Aug 28 2008, 07:28 AM, said:

pclayton, on Aug 28 2008, 09:51 AM, said:

I think you need to pull. If pard had a real moose, we'd hear a redouble or something else over the double.

He couldn't, that would have shown diamonds.

I play pass shows diamonds and redouble shows strength.

What do you play a pass as Josh?

I wouldn't read too much into the difference between pass and 2♥. I'll put it another way. I wasn't the one bidding these hands, but your partner on this hand doesn't play redouble as strength, because in reality they would have redoubled if they did.

BTW I forgot to mention 1NT is 14-16, I doubt it matters much though.

[FrancesHinden]

jdonn, on Aug 28 2008, 04:46 PM, said:

pclayton, on Aug 28 2008, 10:32 AM, said:

jdonn, on Aug 28 2008, 07:28 AM, said:

pclayton, on Aug 28 2008, 09:51 AM, said:

I think you need to pull. If pard had a real moose, we'd hear a redouble or something else over the double.

He couldn't, that would have shown diamonds.

I play pass shows diamonds and redouble shows strength.

What do you play a pass as Josh?

I wouldn't read too much into the difference between pass and 2♥. I'll put it another way. I wasn't the one bidding these hands, but your partner on this hand doesn't play redouble as strength, because in reality they would have redoubled if they did.

BTW I forgot to mention 1NT is 14-16, I doubt it matters much though.

I quite liked the argument that

- if partner wanted to consult he would have redoubled
- thus he doesn't want to consult and we are obliged to pass

It's not so much that redouble would have shown strength and pass doesn't, it's more that redouble asks our opinion on the auction, and pass then double doesn't.

Now sadly you tell us that isn't how his mind works.

I'm back to agreeing with Justin. If you trust partner, and your 2D call was systemic, you have promised no defensive tricks so you have to pass.

However, when you play with someone a lot you do get to know their style. Even having agreed that double is 'penalties' (which I think it ought to be), there are some people with whom I would always pull, because for them a penalty double means "this is going off on a good day". If you are playing with me, double is closer to "yum yum I've got a heart void and 8 diamonds"

I would pull at matchpoints, when double is more along the lines of "I thought we were making 2H so I need to get 300 out of this to compensate, I've got a load of high cards"

[awm]

This certainly depends a lot on partnership style. Has partner seen me balance before with a long suit and no points? How aggressively does partner like to double?

One point that hasn't been mentioned is that, looking at this hand, it is hard to believe that partner has a real diamond stack. Much more likely, partner's double is based on general quick tricks. If this is the case, then if partner has the five tricks we need to beat 3♦ she probably also has the five tricks we need (plus my four heart tricks) to make 3♥. I have no singleton anywhere so it is not that likely partner's tricks are winning on defense but not on offense (yes I know partner could have a slow club trick like QJx or something).

There is also the IMP concern that defending 3♦X making is incredibly bad, and even though bidding 3♥ might sometimes turn a plus score into a minus it will be turning a small plus into a small minus.

[jdonn]

awm, on Aug 28 2008, 02:48 PM, said:

even though bidding 3♥ might sometimes turn a plus score into a minus it will be turning a small plus into a small minus.

Unless partner is like, AKxx x AJT AQxxx and your "small plus" was really down three for 500? I think pulling has nothing to recommend it short of not trusting partner, so pretty much what jlall said. Anyway it's probably not hard to guess but this was a looooooooooooooooong tank before the double, which was pulled. I forget the exact hand but doubler had 18 or 19 with Kx AK in the red suits and 3♦ making easily. If someone pulls in general than ok, but I don't think there is any argument against pass being logical. Partner knows you can have this hand, he doubles anyway, wtp?

It was just online so I didn't really care, this was simply academic.

[skjaeran]

I'd definitely pass this at IMPs - partner isn't joking when he doubles a partscore at IMPs.

At MP it's a much tougher decision.