[mike777]

Great article and great picture of Mrs. Frances Hinden in the March 2009 British Bridge Magazine.

Congrats on your performance on the hand discussed in the article and on your teams results in the TGR Super League.

Thank you for your BBO posts, I learn from them.

[Walddk]

I don't subscribe to that magazine. How do I get a copy of the article?

By the way, Mrs. Frances Hinden sounds very formal, does it not? I found this descriptive information on the net:

"Mr." is for a man. It used to be for an adult male and "Master" was used for children, but it isn't used much any more.

"Mrs." is an abbreviation for Misses and is used to denote a married woman.

Miss is not an abbreviation and, therefore, should never have a period after it. It is used to denote an unmarried woman.

"Ms" is also not an abbreviation and is used to denote a woman, married or unmarried. During the Women's Liberation movement of the early 1970s, it was thought that it was biased to give a title representing a woman's marital status whereas men have a title that does not reveal this information.

Roland

[FrancesHinden]

mike777, on Mar 5 2009, 04:31 AM, said:

Great article and great picture of Mrs. Frances Hinden in the March 2009 British Bridge Magazine.

Congrats on your performance on the hand discussed in the article and on your teams results in the TGR Super League.

Thank you for your BBO posts, I learn from them.

Thank you. I haven't seen the article, but I have been told my a relative who provided half of my genes "your picture is in the mag and it's OK but not particularly flattering"

On Roland's note, I find it interesting how different countries' customs vary. Suppose you start off life as Jane Smith and later marry John Jones.

In the UK you are first Miss Smith and later Mrs Jones. If you don't want to change your surname on marriage you stay Miss Smith, or use the (horrible) Ms Smith, or get a doctorate or other title.

In Iceland, I believe you don't make any change on marriage.

In the Netherlands, what I think is often the case is that you start off Miss Smith and then on marriage become Mrs Smith. I quite like that approach. (The definition of Mrs quoted doesn't preclude that in the UK, but generally it's not done.)

[TimG]

FrancesHinden, on Mar 5 2009, 10:05 AM, said:

Suppose you start off life as Jane Smith and later marry John Jones.

In the UK you are first Miss Smith and later Mrs Jones.

Traditionally, wouldn't you be Mrs. John Jones? Not, Mrs. Jane Jones.

[blackshoe]

If I'm not mistaken, Iceland still follows old Norse custom, wherein the surname (if that's the right term) is formed from the parent's given name and "dottir" or "son" ("sen"?") as appropriate. So Jane, daughter of April, would be Jane Aprilsdottir, and Tom, son of Robert would be Tom Robertson. Even if they were brother and sister.

[jdonn]

Walddk, on Mar 5 2009, 05:00 AM, said:

During the Women's Liberation movement of the early 1970s, it was thought that it was biased to give a title representing a woman's marital status whereas men have a title that does not reveal this information.

I always found this interesting. Isn't the bias perhaps in the other direction? Maybe that isn't the basis of "Mrs." but I think it can easily be interpreted that way now.

[helene_t]

FrancesHinden, on Mar 5 2009, 04:05 PM, said:

In the Netherlands, what I think is often the case is that you start off Miss Smith and then on marriage become Mrs Smith.  I quite like that approach.

Most married Dutch women have a hyphened surname, say
Firstname Husbandssurname-Maidensurname

and will use either Husbandssurname, Maidensurname or Husbandssurname-Maidensurname depending on circumstances.

Btw, it is very unusual to "mejeuvrouw" (unmarried woman). "Mevrouw" used to mean "married woman" but is now used regardless of marital status.

[barmar]

jdonn, on Mar 5 2009, 11:03 AM, said:

Walddk, on Mar 5 2009, 05:00 AM, said:

During the Women's Liberation movement of the early 1970s, it was thought that it was biased to give a title representing a woman's marital status whereas men have a title that does not reveal this information.

I always found this interesting. Isn't the bias perhaps in the other direction? Maybe that isn't the basis of "Mrs." but I think it can easily be interpreted that way now.

The idea was that it was demeaning that the marital status mattered in how one addresses a woman, i.e. there's a difference in social status between single and married women.

I used to work with a man, and when he got married both the husband and wife changed their surnames to the hyphenated combination.

[Walddk]

Frances (Mrs. Hinden ) sent me a copy of the article. Fine play and a well deserved swing.

Roland

[JoAnneM]

When credit cards first became popular I was not "allowed" to have one as Jo Anne Murdock on our joint account. It had to be Mrs. Ronald Murdock. That was a rule of the credit card company.

A funny story - I was traveling cross country with my children in 1973 and we stopped overnight in Las Vegas. My credit card had the Mrs. Ronald Murdock name, of course, and the casino/hotel on the strip would not accept it. They said that if I was running away to Vegas to get a divorce the card might be cancelled by the time I checked out!

Times have certainly changed.

[slothy]

helene_t, on Mar 5 2009, 11:05 AM, said:

Most married Dutch women have a hyphened surname, say
Firstname Husbandssurname-Maidensurname

Dear Helen(uh),

I was in Amsterdam recently and never met or heard of any lady whose was named 'Husbandssurname-Maidensurname'. Must be a bugger to sign cheques and stuff.


Maybe it is different in the provinces or somewhere? I know Dutch tend to have long (and totally unpronounceable) surnames but isn't this a bit over the top?

Alex

[slothy]

Was great article Frances

I read it and enjoyed.

good luck!

[Trinidad]

slothy, on Mar 18 2009, 08:11 AM, said:

helene_t, on Mar 5 2009, 11:05 AM, said:

Most married Dutch women have a hyphened surname, say
Firstname Husbandssurname-Maidensurname

Dear Helen(uh),

I was in Amsterdam recently and never met or heard of any lady whose was named 'Husbandssurname-Maidensurname'. Must be a bugger to sign cheques and stuff.


Maybe it is different in the provinces or somewhere? I know Dutch tend to have long (and totally unpronounceable) surnames but isn't this a bit over the top?

Alex

Since Dutch women have more and more professional careers before they get married (compared to the 1950's) and continue them when they are married, the modern trend for women in The Netherlands is to keep their maiden name as their last name. My guess is that about 70% of the Dutch women marrying today would keep their maiden name and virtually never use their husband's. Changing names creates confusion in some careers. (As an example, think of scientific articles, where the first article in a series is published by A. Jansen and the second by A. Smid-Jansen. Are these the same authors or are these two different people?)

However, the traditional style is as Helene described: The wife takes the husband's last name. That is how you would call her ('Mrs. Husbandsname'). In writing, it would be 'Mrs. Husbandsname-Maidenname'.

But nowadays women can do what they want. I am happy about that since my last name consists of two words (the 'van Beethoven' type) and my wife's last name (with a Nordic origin) consists of two words. If my wife would have taken my name, then in all official documentation she would be forced to write four words for her last name. That wouldn't make her life easier, would it?

Rik

[slothy]

Thank you for your reply Trinni.

However, sorry to say, it was a rather (unsuccessful as it turns out) attempt at being sarcastic rather than a plea for explanation Having said that i am sure that any non Dutch woman betrothed to Dutch partners (and i am sure there are many of them) stumbling upon this thread might re-evaluate their prenup

Maybe i should have stressed the fact that i was referring to the scenario of Dutch women who specifically had the surname 'Husbandssurname-Maidensurname'.

Not that this is the first, nor undoubtedly the last, time that my attempt at humour has fallen flat on its face.

Alex

[Gerben42]

Quote

I was in Amsterdam recently and never met or heard of any lady whose was named 'Husbandssurname-Maidensurname'. Must be a bugger to sign cheques and stuff.

On the door to my mom's office it shows Liesbeth Dirksen - de Tombe, i.e. both last name and maiden name.

Signing is done in the Netherlands not by writing your name, but some scribbly thing that looked like your name when you were 20, but evolved into something unreadable afterwards.

Quote

Maybe it is different in the provinces or somewhere? I know Dutch tend to have long (and totally unpronounceable) surnames but isn't this a bit over the top?

The Dutch are not Polish

[RMB1]

Trinidad, on Mar 18 2009, 01:57 PM, said:

... Changing names creates confusion in some careers. (As an example, think of scientific articles, where the first article in a series is published by A. Jansen and the second by A. Smid-Jansen. Are these the same authors or are these two different people?)

Changing names also obscures bridge achievements. The Portland Pairs (the British Mixed Pairs Championship) has been won three times by three different people. In the list, the two men are more obvious than the woman who has won with three different surnames. Unless I have overlooked someone.

Robin

[jallerton]

Walddk, on Mar 5 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

I found this descriptive information on the net:

"Mr." is for a man. It used to be for an adult male and "Master" was used for children, but it isn't used much any more.

"Mrs." is an abbreviation for Misses and is used to denote a married woman.

Miss is not an abbreviation and, therefore, should never have a period after it. It is used to denote an unmarried woman.

"Ms" is also not an abbreviation and is used to denote a woman, married or unmarried. During the Women's Liberation movement of the early 1970s, it was thought that it was biased to give a title representing a woman's marital status whereas men have a title that does not reveal this information.

Roland

The website you found is correct about Miss and Ms, but not about Mr and Mrs, in U.K. English at any rate.

United Kingdom usage favours omitting the full stop in abbreviations which include the first and last letters of a single word, such as Mr, Mrs, Ms, Dr and St; the idea is that the full stop directly replaces something (the missing letters at the end of the word). Where the omitted letters are in the middle of the word, the logical way to denote this would 'M.r', but this would read awkwardly and is not used.

[FrancesHinden]

jallerton, on Mar 25 2009, 11:49 PM, said:

Where the omitted letters are in the middle of the word, the logical way to denote this would 'M.r', but this would read awkwardly and is not used.

Missing letters are usually indicated by an apostrophe in English (I'm surprised you aren't aware that's the case) so the logical way to write Mr would be M'r. But that isn't used either.

[gnasher]

FrancesHinden, on Mar 26 2009, 02:21 PM, said:

Missing letters are usually indicated by an apostrophe in English (I'm surprised you aren't aware that's the case) so the logical way to write Mr would be M'r. But that isn't used either.

That would be the grammatical way, but English grammar isn't particularly logical. If it were, we'd write

Prof' and Ph'D

[helene_t]

gnasher, on Mar 27 2009, 09:36 AM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Mar 26 2009, 02:21 PM, said:

Missing letters are usually indicated by an apostrophe in English (I'm surprised you aren't aware that's the case)  so the logical way to write Mr would be M'r.  But that isn't used either.

That would be the grammatical way, but English grammar isn't particularly logical. If it were, we'd write

Prof' and Ph'D

Nah, "isn't" is spelled that way to reflect how it is pronounced. "Prof." is spelled that way because it is pronounced in its entirety, and "Ph.D." because it is pronounced as the names of the letters.