BBO Discussion Forums: Appeal 2 in Indian Team Trials - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Appeal 2 in Indian Team Trials All players are WC and regular partners

#1 User is offline   rvbridge 

  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 7
  • Joined: 2005-November-05

Posted 2009-March-31, 02:19

Scoring: IMP


West North East South
Pass 2 (1) Pass 2N (2)
3 X (3) Pass 3 (4)
Pass 3N Pass 6

1) Pre-empt
2) Relay
3) Explained as showing Good-Good or Bad-Bad by South to West and only Good-Good by North to East
4) Explained as Relay by South to West and Suit/ Values by North to East
5) Explained as showing good, bal hand by South to West and showing stopper and playable spot by North to East

Lead 2

Table proceedings and Director’s Ruling

North and East were screen-mates. South and West were screen-mates. At the end of the auction, West asked South on his side of the screen, the meaning of North’s double and 3n bids. South clearly explained (written and showed system notes) that double showed either Good-Good (both quality of suit and points) or Bad-Bad (both quality of suit and points) and that 3n showed Good-Good and bal hand. West checked with South at the end of the auction and again before playing to the second trick whether North can have a singleton and South clearly mentioned (written) that North cannot have a stiff for his 3n bid. Playing 3rd and 5th best leads, East led 2, West won A, and continued with Q. Declarer ruffed in dummy and promptly proceeded to make the contract (12 tricks). West called the director at the end of the deal and informed him that he would like to appeal because of wrong explanation of 3n bid. Additionally, West & East mentioned that different written explanations were given on both the sides of the screen for both the double and 3n bids by North. Director let the table result stand, but asked EW to appeal since it is complicated matter

Appeal’s committee (AC) deliberations

East-West appealed. All 4 players were present at the Appeals committee (AC). North and South were called together and East-West were called together.
AC checked with both West and East on the explanation of meaning of double. East explained that North informed him that double shows a good hand and West explained that South told him it showed Good-Good hand or Bad-Bad hand (Pass replaces all lost bids and Double replaces the bid by opponents-3 in this case). AC checked with both West and East on the meaning of 3n. West explained that South informed him that his 3 bid was relay and North’s 3n bid showed a Good-Good, bal hand w/o singleton. East explained North informed him that it showed a club stopper and a playable spot.

AC checked with both South and North on the above facts and they confirmed that different explanations were given on both sides of the screen for both X and 3n bids by North. AC checked the system notes of NS and verified that South’s explanation to West is as per notes (not explicitly mentioned if it applies on intervention as well) for bids of X and 3n by North and 3 by South. North had forgotten the system and he took all bids as natural.

AC asked West on the reason for playing back Q at trick 2. West reasoned that playing back a at trick 2 could cost if declarer has AKTXXX, QX, XXX, XX. Similarly returning a at trick 2 is not required even if partner has void since declarer will go down anyway. Based on the explanation of 3n bid as a bal hand and partner’s 3rd/5th leads, West felt it was absolutely safe to play back Q since declarer is odds on to have only 2 s. He also indicated on slam auctions, partner will lead 2 even from T9XX2 and not T playing 0 or 2 leads.

AC sympathized with West that he had a difficult defensive problem because of explanation given to him, but they felt West would lead T from T9XXX even in slam auctions, hence West should preferably a at trick 2 or return a low instead of Q. AC also felt with xxxx, TXXX,-JXXXX in West hand he would have supported/pre-empted clubs in the auction or made a lightner double of final contact. Additionally the members felt that this auction is quite rare, hence likely to be mis-intrepreted even if the partnership has discussed it earlier. To summarise, AC felt that there was sufficient grounds for West to realize that the wheels had come off NS bidding and that he should have worked out to play a . AC rejected the appeal and let the table result stand (Law 75C and 40C). Appeal was deemed to have some merit and the deposit was returned.


A few questions on the Players’ actions, director’s role, AC proceedings and variations to get a better perspective:
a) What is your final ruling on the appeal based on above facts?
:D Can South or North refer to system notes and clarify West’s/East’s questions at the end of auction? Can/Should East or West ask for system notes of opponents to verify explanation?
c) Should the director rule on the deal instead of just referring it to AC?
d) Should AC call all the players together initially to verify all facts?
e) Should AC question North and South separately to verify system details?
f) Should AC ask any other questions to any of the players?
g) Even assuming, playing back or low is correct, isn’t West not entitled to redress because he was misled by South’s explanation to go on the wrong track?
h) Will you change your ruling if South indicated to West that he is not sure of meaning of 3n bid but took it as showing bal and good hand?
i) Will you change your ruling if East did not ask North explanation of his bids and North gives same explanation of his bids to AC, as South gave to West at the table?
j) Will you change your ruling if North gives same explanation (treat his hand as balanced!!) to East at the table, as South gave to West for his 3n bid?
k) Will you change your ruling if South’s suit is AKXX instead of AK9X?
l) Will you change your ruling if the East player is not World Class?
m) Will you change your ruling if North-South are a new partnership or lower class of event (club, sectional or regional)?
n) Should there be any procedural penalty to be imposed on North-South for differing /wrong explanation even if appeal is rejected?
0

#2 User is offline   Lanor Fow 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 191
  • Joined: 2007-May-19

Posted 2009-March-31, 05:25

I'll have a go:

a) South’s explanation seems to be the correct one, as backed up by system notes. Therefore West has not been misinformed. He is entitled to know agreements only, not whether North has misbid or not. As such there is no case for any adjustment based on west changing his actions. East has been misinformed, but has not made any claim that with the correct information (that given by south to west) he would have played differently.

Hence no adjustment.

B) not sure, but i'm reasonably confident that E/W are only entitled to look at the convention cards, rather than more complete system notes. Explanations ofc should be complete, and system notes can be sued as evidence to the TD in cases of MI/misbid.

c)Yes!

d) Not sure. As a director I try to talk to all players at the same time in most situations when working out what happened.

e) Yes i would think it can help if they are questioned separately if possible.

f) I would be interested if East felt damaged, but this did not seem to be suggested by e/w so I probably wouldn’t ask.

g) As to how correct it is, I wouldn't like to comment. In this case it seems west has been told the correct agreements and so isn't entitled to any redress whatever is correct. Had west been given misinformation then the error would have to be deemed serious, wild or gambling to deny redress (i think its s/w/g, used to be irrational, wild or gambling, or in some places wild or gabling). At least in the EBU (which I know this case is not from) defensive errors are given more leeway than bidding errors in this regard. If redress is denied to e/w because of a serious/wild/gambling play, then the score is still adjusted for north south.

h) Souths current explanation is systemically correct, if he explains in the way given (systemically correct but with some doubt) I stil believe the correct systemic information has been given and thus west has not been misinformed. No adjustment still.

i) As East has not claimed to be damaged, I dont think that Norths explanations are relevant to the ruling. In the case that North didn't give any explanation, no misinformation has been given to either E or W and there can be even less case for an adjustment.

j) Similarly if souths explanations are systemically correct, which as backed up by the system notes I am likely to accept, and north gives the same explanation, there is no misinformation and no adjustment.

k) NO change, still no misinformation to west.

l) No change, still no misinformation to west, and east isn't claiming to change his play based on misinformation given to him by north.

m) NO change, still no misinformation to west.

n) No. people, even world class players get agreements wrong. I dont think that this deserves a PP. The vast majority of systemic mistakes end with a bad score, why punish them for the time they get lucky too (assuming of course MI didn't aversely affect oppos).
0

#3 User is offline   MFA 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,625
  • Joined: 2006-October-04
  • Location:Denmark

Posted 2009-March-31, 05:52

I think that this case was handled well, and that Lanor Fow's comments are sensible.
Michael Askgaard
0

#4 User is offline   TimG 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,972
  • Joined: 2004-July-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maine, USA

Posted 2009-March-31, 06:14

It seems to me from the facts that there was a mis-bid rather than an incorrect explanation, so west is not entitled to any adjustment.

Quote

d) Should AC call all the players together initially to verify all facts?
I like the process by which the EW and NS players are called separately. It strikes me as less likely to result in exaggeration by either side. For instance, if there is a difference of opinion regarding length of hesitation and both sides are present, if the first side says it was 5 seconds then the second side (who thinks it was 10 seconds) might be prone to claim it was 15 seconds so that the average will be something like what they really felt.

In short, I think the separate testimony will likely lead to a less confrontational atmosphere and less exaggeration.

Quote

e) Should AC question North and South separately to verify system details?
Most undocumented claims by NS will be seen as self-serving, so I do not think there is any need to question separately. Also, between the time of the play of the hand and the appeal, the partnership will usually have had plenty of time to discuss and settle the matter (so that they should be able to provide consistent testimony whether done together or separately). Given this, it seems wrong to give more weight to separate testimony. And thus, the separate testimony would serve little or no purpose.
0

#5 User is offline   PeterGill 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 139
  • Joined: 2006-September-18

Posted 2009-March-31, 06:32

I agree that the AC handled the appeal well. Because West was provided with the correct explanation (as verified by NS's system notes), West's play was not based on any infratction. The infraction occurred on the other (NE) side of the screen.

As for any procedural penalty against NS, most emphatically no penalty.
Many pairs would have difficulties when there's interference in an Ogust auction.

Peter Gill.
0

#6 User is offline   skjaeran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,727
  • Joined: 2006-June-05
  • Location:Oslo, Norway
  • Interests:Bridge, sports, Sci-fi, fantasy

Posted 2009-March-31, 13:40

Agree that the case was well handled by the AC. As a TD I'd have ruled result stands, without asking EW to appeal, since I find this an easy case to rule upon.
Kind regards,
Harald
0

#7 User is offline   rvbridge 

  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 7
  • Joined: 2005-November-05

Posted 2009-April-01, 02:24

Thanks for the all the comments to plethora of questions.

The summary of the discussion is that West (who is in the hot-seat for the defense) was informed of the partnership agreement, but unfortunately North had mis-bid or intepreted the system was off on Interference. I presume that most of the panel have sympathy for West since with the explanation given to him, he defended accurately. In such a scenario the rules clearly say that EW is not entitled to any redress. The rationale behind the rule seems to be that in most cases North-South will end up in trouble because of mis-bid or mis-interpretation, but occassionally when it benefits them they should be allowed to hold their good result.

A few supplementary questions:

a) Is there any merit in proposing a bridge law/rule change, whereby it is mandatory to share the written explanation on both sides of the screen to all parties at the end of this auction? This way the non-offending side will clearly have all of the facts and will not damaged in any way.

B) In the specific case, suppose NS agreement is as per South's explanation to West in case of uninterrupted auctions, but that they don't have clear / specific agreement that it applies on Interference as well, do you see any redressal to West as per existing laws. Would you assess PP in this case?
0

#8 User is offline   PeterGill 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 139
  • Joined: 2006-September-18

Posted 2009-April-01, 07:38

Share the written explanations with all parties, or just with both opponents
(and not with partner) at the end of the bidding? An interesting idea. If anyone
can figure out if it's a good idea, please let us know. I'm not sure. It seems
to have some merit, and I cannot figure out what the downside would be.
0

#9 User is offline   MFA 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,625
  • Joined: 2006-October-04
  • Location:Denmark

Posted 2009-April-01, 15:07

PeterGill, on Apr 1 2009, 08:38 AM, said:

Share the written explanations with all parties, or just with both opponents
(and not with partner) at the end of the bidding? An interesting idea. If anyone
can figure out if it's a good idea, please let us know. I'm not sure. It seems
to have some merit, and I cannot figure out what the downside would be.

Tbh it sounds like a very annoying and time consuming procedure to me. :mellow:
Also there seems to be clear UI downside with sharing notes.
Michael Askgaard
0

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users