[rogerclee]

This is not strictly a law ruling case, but I thought I would post it here, since I think it would interest the people who primarily look at this subforum.

You hold at matchpoints

AJ9xx KTxx T AQx

With no opposition bidding, it goes

1D-1S
3C-3H
3N-?

What is your bid?

At the table my opponent thought for approximately 1 minute and jumped to 7NT. Of course it was cold, partner had void AJx AKQ9xx KJxx and diamonds broke 3-3.

So here are three questions

1) If you were called to the table as a director after the hand was played and asked to make a ruling, would you change the result?
2) What percent chance do you think the 7N bid was made with a wire?
3) Would you file a recorder form about this hand? (I am.)

[bluejak]

1] No, why?
2] Never occur to me. Very close to zero, anyway.
3] No, but I would not stop you if, for example, you were may partner.

[Cascade]

1. My stock answer in this sort of situation is that "Strange bids are allowed". I would need much more evidence than a bid was considered "strange" even when successful before considering making an adjustment.

2. This is hard to answer. There are many reasons why someone might take a fly at a contract. Yesterday I saw a pair or rather a player in a minor tournament with ♥ AKQxx in an uncontested auction drive to slam in hearts without hearing support from partner. Partner produced xx and the suit broke 3=3 and the slam rolled in. Based on this result the pair won the tournament. Do I think they had a wire? No they are just bad players. Someone else might just judge that they need an exceptional result for whatever reason.

Further if someone had a wire on a hand like this would they really bounce to 7NT. I suppose maybe they would but maybe they would take some other action.

3. Usually I would want some other evidence but its possible and reasonable to make a recorder report just in case there is some other evidence about this pair/player or if you have other knowledge about the player.

I did once made a recorder report about a player who shot a grand when in a position to count 11 tricks. Partner produced an extra card in her long suit for twelve and there was some other good fortune - finesse or break for the thirteenth. The odd thing for me was that the player concerned seemed to be better than one who would take such a wild action.

[mrdct]

1. If I was called to the table as a director I would probably give the person who called me a procedural penalty for making a a ridiculous and frivilous TD call on hand where there has clearly been no infraction and thereby interfering with his opponents' enjoyment of the game and the general conduct of the event.

2. If he knew his partner's hand he surely wouldn't be bidding 7NT which required ♦3-3 or ♦J coming down doubleton and if he'd seen a hand record or overheard something from another table or player he would have produced a more sensible auction as Wayne suggested. The guy may have decided to jump to 7NT fearful of any ambiguity that might arise if he tried to ask for aces (e.g. is 4NT now quantitative or blackwood). It is matchpoints after all and maybe the state of their set is such that they are now chasing tops and bottoms.

3. If I was the person who made the 7NT bid, I might file a recorder report against you for making slanderous intimations that I'm cheating.

[TimG]

mrdct, on Jul 24 2010, 09:47 PM, said:

3.  If I was the person who made the 7NT bid, I might file a recorder report against you for making slanderous intimations that I'm cheating.

That would be ridiculous if based upon the filing of a recorder memo -- a cheating allegation made through the proper channels is well within a player's rights even if it is entirely without merit.

If you are concerned about the post here, I would still think you are far off the mark.

[rogerclee]

mrdct, on Jul 24 2010, 07:47 PM, said:

1.  If I was called to the table as a director I would probably give the person who called me a procedural penalty for making a a ridiculous and frivilous TD call on hand where there has clearly been no infraction and thereby interfering with his opponents' enjoyment of the game and the general conduct of the event.

LOL

[jdonn]

1. No of course not, I see no basis to do that.
2. I would say about 40%. I know this is different from the answer I gave you in person but I have slightly more information than is posted here (which is all I'm basing this answer on). For anyone who says 0% or something close to it, you should at least know this was the second day of a 3 day national event. So even if you don't know the player you should at least assume he is well beyond being a beginner. Obviously if this was a beginner he would just make a bid like this because he doesn't know better.
3. I have never filed one but I agree with your doing so. I don't understand the criticism of this, it's simply an official record of a suspicious incident it's not an accusation. If the appropriate authorities decide there is nothing important about this incident or whatever then they will drop it and that will be that.

[campboy]

Obviously there is no basis for adjustment whatsoever on this board. By all means file a record, but I doubt it will do any good; even if you can establish a pattern of wild bids which worked you can't tell whether the player has made lots of wild bids that failed on other occasions since no-one will bother to record those.

Anyway, the player may simply have enough idea of his running score to know that he is desperate for tops at this point.

[Ant590]

This reminds me of an EBU Spring Fours deal when someone went out to the toilet past a group of players discussing the hands, and came back to bid something like that.

I can't remember the ins and outs of what happened, but I think the director wasn't called about it.

[ahydra]

- AQJ AKQJxx Kxxx
Kx Ax AKQJx Kxxx
xx A AKQJx Kxxxx

three example hands which opener may well have for his jump rebid. Admittedly they all rely on the diamonds running but 7NT is very good opposite all of them, so I'm not sure I would regard this as cheating at all. (A little lucky though to find partner with all required aces!)

ahydra

[peachy]

1. If I were TD, I would not have anything to rule. No infraction and no evidence of any wrongdoing.
2.
3. I would file a recorder form, definitely!

Strange bids are allowed, but this is beyond strange. The only way to catch up with "strange bids" or "strange bidders" is to file a recorder form.

PS. Congrats on doing well!

[cherdanno]

jdonn, on Jul 25 2010, 03:29 AM, said:

1. No of course not, I see no basis to do that.
2. I would say about 40%. [...] For anyone who says 0% or something close to it, you should at least know this was the second day of a 3 day national event. So even if you don't know the player you should at least assume he is well beyond being a beginner. Obviously if this was a beginner he would just make a bid like this because he doesn't know better.
3. I have never filed one but I agree with your doing so. I don't understand the criticism of this, it's simply an official record of a suspicious incident it's not an accusation. If the appropriate authorities decide there is nothing important about this incident or whatever then they will drop it and that will be that.

Agree with all of this.

[Poky]

rogerclee, on Jul 25 2010, 12:16 AM, said:

1) If you were called to the table as a director after the hand was played and asked to make a ruling, would you change the result?
2) What percent chance do you think the 7N bid was made with a wire?
3) Would you file a recorder form about this hand? (I am.)

1) No, but I would kindly ask for the reason of 7NT bid, just to feel the reactions. Bad cheaters are usually very bad liars.
2) 90%.
3) For sure.

[Trinidad]

rogerclee, on Jul 25 2010, 12:16 AM, said:

Of course it was cold, partner had void AJx AKQ9xx KJxx and diamonds broke 3-3.

Just a question: How much worse could partner's hand be for his bidding?

Rik

[aguahombre]

Cascade, on Jul 24 2010, 07:00 PM, said:

Further if someone had a wire on a hand like this would they really bounce to 7NT. I suppose maybe they would but maybe they would take some other action.

Day two of LM Pairs; probably an experienced player; not necessarily an experienced partnership.

1) Find a good call at this point in the auction which is not disaster prone (even in a somewhat veteran partnership with less than thorough agreements). A lot of people wouldn't even be sure how to find out about Aces.

2)I Bet at other tables with a very similar path to this point, a jump to 6N occurred.

3)Maybe after tanking so long he decided it wouldn't make exactly six anyway (e.g. diamonds break for 13 tricks, or they don't for down in 6). Is it o.k. to take advantage of your own BIT?

4)Or, maybe he had a wire But his partner wasn't in on it, and 7NT was his last train.

These thoughts led me nowhere near to an opinion on what happened, which brings me back to Josh's answers because he seems to have inside information.

[ggwhiz]

Could the 7nt bid not have been an honest "ethical" attempt?

I have been in similar situations, realizing that after my long tank, my legit continuations may put partner on the spot and so just bite the bullet.

I would therefore be very careful about assuming too much but this is what the Recorder system is for should that player have a history that doesn't pass the smell test.

The issue would probably be put to rest if the Director simply asked the 7nt bidder why he did it.

[zenko]

rogerclee, on Jul 24 2010, 06:16 PM, said:

1) If you were called to the table as a director after the hand was played and asked to make a ruling, would you change the result?
2) What percent chance do you think the 7N bid was made with a wire?
3) Would you file a recorder form about this hand? (I am.)

1) absolutely not, but unfortunately I am afraid I would probably have to file a misconduct warning vs your opponents for calling you a few choice names, if not worse. I said unfortunately because I would 100% agree with their opinion about your call.

2) 0%, matter of fact the call proves that they are NOT wired (as much as you can prove a negative). & NT depends on 3-3 diamonds, that info can not be wirfed exept by you

3) I would 100% encourage that, especially if the tables were close. On such a hand it is very likely that on many tables somebody will comment about 7N being cold, so it is quite possible that the player heard that. So if there is a pattern for that player of reaching improbable but cold slams/strange contracts, or finding strange but the only leads to beat the contract (i.e the situations that tend to be most often discussed) he will be caught having too sensitive ears.

[aguahombre]

Overhearing is a wire in my world, Zenko. There are wires on a board, and there are pairs who are wired. Your answers to the questions indicate a different definition.

[mr1303]

I made worse bids tonight to be honest (although I did have a bottle of cider...)

[cloa513]

The 7NT might used to his partner being a chronic underbidder.