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L..T.C. losing trick count

#21 User is offline   lexlogan 

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Posted 2011-January-01, 22:33

View Poststraube, on 2011-January-01, 18:52, said:

I like the Modern LTC method as written about by Ron Klinger. There are many adjustments but the basic idea is to count an ace as -.5 loser and a queen as +.5 loser and a king as 0 loser.

Counting winners rather than losers, that makes for a 1.5-1.0-0.5 count, equivalent to the well-known Four Aces 3-2-1 count. LTC is a good way to get started thinking about tricks rather than points, a way to begin to visualize. But the number of adjustments needed to apply LTC sensibly makes it just as complex and no more accurate than standard point count methods.
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#22 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2011-January-01, 23:23

Han is funny. LTC is not funny.

OK, when we have discovered a fit, it has some limited application, but beyond that its worthless.
Hi y'all!

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#23 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2011-January-02, 00:28

View Postrduran1216, on 2011-January-01, 22:33, said:

his was obviously a joke post.

And an unfunny one at that.

I guess humour is subjective but you must admit Han's post was brilliant, whether it gave you a laugh or not.
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
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#24 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2011-January-02, 01:58

View Postrduran1216, on 2011-January-01, 22:33, said:

his was obviously a joke post.

And an unfunny one at that.


As they usually are.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#25 User is offline   pirate22 

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Posted 2011-January-02, 05:26

as i stated 95% success---apologies,I also should have said some adj and common sense applies.
example you have 7 loser hand u open 1 spade pass 3sp pass,
DECISON TIME: pass with 7 losers.but bid 4 if you arrive at 6 losers.

overall you win some and lose some,but the main thing is respect your partners 3 spade bid
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#26 User is offline   lexlogan 

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Posted 2011-January-02, 20:37

View Postrduran1216, on 2011-January-01, 22:33, said:

his was obviously a joke post.

And an unfunny one at that.


OK, he got me, hook, line and sinker :)
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#27 User is online   mike777 

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Posted 2011-January-02, 20:57

fwiw prefer to use adjusted ltc per book.....I grant even adjusted ltc can be made to look like a fool.


1) adjusted ltc worse than what you have
2) you have better than adjusted ltc.
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#28 User is offline   rduran1216 

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Posted 2011-January-04, 00:57

i view LTC in higher esteem than the law, but with similar ideology.

In the semi-common, 1S 2H 2S 3H type auction where I as responder hold a working K and A with 3 hearts I am doubling every time. Do my opp pick up 530 every now and then, yes. But not enough to offset the 300's which are always a top in MP's.

When I hold AKxxxx AQ10x x xx as I did earlier today and it goes 1S 2S, I am blasting 4S with confidence. And would bid 3S over a forcing NT with AK10xxx K10x A9x x

It is a nice tool for hand re-evaluation.
Aaron Jones Unit 557

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#29 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-January-04, 01:43

View Postrduran1216, on 2011-January-01, 22:33, said:

his was obviously a joke post.

And an unfunny one at that.


Hahaha I mean, I literally had tears streaming down my eyes after reading his post. Then a few people just didn't comment on it and I was like wtf. Then I saw your post and was like wow no one has a sense of humor, better vote up hans post... looks like I wasn't the first! I still don't like the rep system since I think less people commented on how funny it was since they just upvoted it :P Whatever, Han, best post on BBF ever. I might even have to change my MikeH quote from my signature since yours is even funnier... :(
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#30 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-January-04, 01:44

Unfortunately I cannot comment on whether LTC sucks or not since I never learned it and no good player I have ever discussed bridge with IRL has referenced it. But from what I have read on the forums/heard the numerous bad players IRL say to justify their bids...it does seem to suck!
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#31 User is offline   matmat 

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Posted 2011-January-04, 02:25

View PostJLOGIC, on 2011-January-04, 01:43, said:

I think less people commented on how funny it was since they just upvoted it

Guilty.
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#32 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2011-January-04, 02:46

I never understood the losers versus losers theory, but the losers versus expeced covers is something I constantly use after I found a fit.
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#33 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2011-January-04, 06:42

A friend of mine recently published a book on the topic, fwiw.

http://www.amazon.co...m/dp/1554947510
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#34 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-January-04, 08:29

There's also this fine work:

Practise Your Losing Trick Count with Tom Townsend

which tells us something about how hard life can be for a young bridge pro.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#35 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2011-January-07, 18:36

View PostJLOGIC, on 2011-January-04, 01:44, said:

Unfortunately I cannot comment on whether LTC sucks or not since I never learned it and no good player I have ever discussed bridge with IRL has referenced it. But from what I have read on the forums/heard the numerous bad players IRL say to justify their bids...it does seem to suck!

  • For Han, Helene_t, gnasher, JLOGIC, matmat, Phil, and players of that calibre, the LTC may be a hilarious joke :)
  • But, IMO, it's an effective tool for ordinary players. My father taught me a variant that compensates for some of my judgement lapses :(

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#36 User is offline   zasanya 

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Posted 2011-January-08, 04:43

View Postnige1, on 2011-January-07, 18:36, said:

  • For Han, Helene_t, gnasher, JLOGIC, matmat, Phil, and players of that calibre, the LTC may be a hilarious joke :)
  • But, IMO, it's an effective tool for ordinary players. My father taught me a variant that compensates for some of my judgement lapses :(


Well said sir.I like this post.An honest fair opinion with a touch of good humor which everyone can appreciate.
Aniruddha
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#37 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2011-January-08, 16:46

View Posthan, on 2011-January-01, 16:16, said:

Our game and slam bidding improved greatly since my partner and I started using the losing trick count (LTC).
The other day for instance I opened 1S holding Qxxxx x Qxxx QJx, a 7-loser hand. My partner invited holding AJx Axx AJx A10xx and since I was vulnerable I decided to bid the excellent game. At the other table my counterpart passed, probably because he was using stone age evaluation methods. After my teammates preempted with 2H, the opponent holding my partner's hand bid 2NT (counting the 8-loser hand as "18 HCP", LOL!) and even then my hand did not go to game. When will they learn???
In the same match I opened 1S on AKJxxx Ax AKx Ax, a 4-loser hand. When my partner bid a GF 2C on Qxxx x QJxx Qxxxx I was able to show my strong suit and 4-loser hand by jumping to 4S. My partner showed excellent judgement by cuebidding 5H and later admitted to holding the diamond queen, which made me bid 7S. At the other table they did not even find the small slam after overbidding by opening 2C on my hand (counting HCP I am sure) and my teammates again preempted in hearts.
Adopting LTC is the best thing that ever happened to our partnership.

View Postlexlogan, on 2011-January-01, 22:33, said:

Counting winners rather than losers, that makes for a 1.5-1.0-0.5 count, equivalent to the well-known Four Aces 3-2-1 count. LTC is a good way to get started thinking about tricks rather than points, a way to begin to visualize. But the number of adjustments needed to apply LTC sensibly makes it just as complex and no more accurate than standard point count methods.
My father, Charles Guthrie, taught the Wining Trick Count to me, an arithmetically challenged kid. He based his simplificatons on the scheme to which LexLogan refers.

The LTC and the WTC produce the same results but the latter uses addition instead of subtraction:

  • High Cards: Ace = 1.5 trick. King = 1 trick. Queen = 0.5 trick.
  • Shape: Void = 3 tricks. Singleton = 2 tricks. Doubleton = 1 trick.
  • Adustment: Discount singleton kings and doubleton queens.
  • Refinement: Honours work best in long suits and in combination (re-enforcing each other). Also adjust slightly for suit-texture (tens and spot-cards).
  • Re-assessment: Initial evaluation is optimistic. In the light of the auction, down-grade for duplication. For instance king opposite splinter. Or mirror-distribution. Also downgrade for bad position. For example honours in suits bid on your left.
  • Trump control = 1 trick. Add a trick if your combined trump holding is likely to be sufficient to draw trumps and ruff losers. This normally requires at least an eight-card fit.
  • Trick expectancy: Add your tricks to the tricks partner has shown. Count trump-control once, at most.

Han's first example:
  • Qxxxx x Qxxx QJx: High cards = 1.5. Shape = 2. Total = 3.5
  • AJx Axx AJx A10xx: High cards = 6. Total = 6.
  • Add 1 trick for trump control. Trick expectation = 3.5 + 6 + 1 = 10.5.
  • (Not bad)

Han's second example:
  • AKJxxx Ax AKx Ax: High cards = 8. Shape = 2. Total = 10
  • Qxxx x QJxx Qxxxx: High cards = 1.5. Shape = 2. Total = 3.5
  • Add 1 trick for trump control. Trick expectation = 10 + 3.5 +1 = 14.5.
  • (WTC over-estimates here, since, in fact, we have nothing to spare).

The usual cacophony of LOLs is expected :)
Especially since I've taken Han's examples seriously :) :) :)

Nevertheless, the LTC withstands the test of time. (from 1935 to date).
Whereas other seminal ideas go in an out of fashion over long periods. Thus,
Total Tricks (a closely related idea) is currently unpopular but, in the past, had its moments
  • 1966 Bridge moderne de la défense: Jean-rené Vernes.
  • 1981 TNT and Competitive Bidding: Joe Amsbury & Dick Payne.
  • 1992 To Bid Or Not to Bid: The Law of Total Tricks: Larry Cohen.

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#38 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2011-January-08, 16:57

You are such a blasphemist, Nigel! LOTT is till going strong!
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#39 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2011-January-08, 17:26

View Posthelene_t, on 2011-January-08, 16:57, said:

You are such a blasphemist, Nigel! LOTT is till going strong!
Prefer "Eclectic and Ecumenical" :) which may mean you annoy everybody :(
I like LOTT too :)
Both LTC and TNT are crude yardsticks but improve the "judgement" of players like me.

My point was that LOTT was à la mode in the 60s and 80s and again came into fashion in the 90s but has lately been criticised e.g.
2005 I Fought the Law of Total Tricks: Mike Lawrence & Anders Wirgren
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#40 User is offline   losercover 

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Posted 2011-January-12, 15:26

I started playing losers and cover cards when the Romex book was published. Some of Rosenkrantz's definitions of cover cards were BS, i.e. a king is a cover card when you know your partner has the ace. His next book said kings were a cover card. Fast forward 22 years later (including a 11 year bridge break). My partner and I frequently disagreed on cover card evaluation. I got Klinger's book and he added some reasonableness to evaluating loser count. Rosenkrantz said qxx was 2 losers and Klinger said 2 1/2 losers. We started to use either cover cards or loser count to evaluate a responding hand or a rebid by opener. We adopted Klinger's 6 loser count for a jump raise by opener instead of Rosenkrantz's 5 losers. This made are auctions more precise. I recently bought some of the new Rosenkrantz books and he has put his loser count evaluation more in line with Klinger's. He has also refined his cover card evaluation based on the length of trump support. I also looked at Lawrence's book on hand evaluation and the overall texture of a hand and where the honors are placed are also important.

I wouldn't be happy going back to points based bidding, but no matter the approach there is a lot of hand evaluation required.
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