[Crunch3nt]

Hi all,

I am looking for a clean slate, fresh, innovative ideas on how to respond to our 1st/2nd seat opening pass that shows: 0-6 HCP any shape or 16+ Unbalanced any shape, or 17+ Balanced.

I am pretty happy with our 1st/2nd seat structure. Lets focus on the 3rd/4th openings only. (Positive comments are ok :-)

We play moscito-ish openings with full relay. Our style is for balanced hands to include all 4432s and 5332s including with a major. Unbalanced hands can be 5422 or 6322 / 7222 but otherwise have a singleton/void. For the record the rest of the opening structure is:

Pass = 0-6 or 16+ Unbal or 17+ Bal
1C = (10)11-15, 4+H, unbal, can have longer minor
1D = (10)11-15, 4+S, unbal, can have longer minor
1H = 7-10 Any shape
1S = 11-13 Bal
1NT = 14-16 Bal
2C = (10)11-15 5+/4+ Both Minors
2D = (10)11-15 6+ Diamonds, No Major
2H = (10)11-15 6+ Clubs, No Major
2S = Weak, 5 or 6 Spades
2NT = 5-8 5+/5+ Majors
3x = Pre

It is obviously a HUM, and the responses can be as HUM as much you like. (I live in New Zealand, so obviously I can play this at my local club). Complicated / Memory issues shouldn't be a problem - but don't go overboard if you don't need to :-)


Thoughts / ideas welcome please

:-)

[olien]

Well, over an opening pass, couldn't you possible use the non-forcing pass version of moscito 3rd/4th seat opening bids? Maybe something similar to:

1♣ = 0-7(8) any or 11-13 BAL or any 17+
1♦ = 4+♥ 9-16 (or whatever range you like)
1♥ = 4+♠
1♠ = ♦ or both minors
1NT = 14-16 balanced
2♣ = 9-16 6+♣ no 4M
etc...


After the 3rd seat 1♣:
1♦ = strong option
1M = 3+M, 0-6 HCP
1NT = both minors, 0-6 HCP
2m = 6+m, 0-6 HCP

After 1♣-1♦, not sure what would be wise here, but here's my idea:
1♥ = 0-7 any
1♠ = 11-13 BAL, sets up GF and now O can relay beginning with 1NT
1NT+ = 16+ HCP, using whatever relay steps you desire. Since the 6-level is safe now, the lost space isn't really lost.

It may even be better after 1♣-1♦ to play that 1♥ shows 11-13 BAL or a strong hand and other bids are in the 0-6 range, but seems to chew up a bit of room.

After the transfer openings, play the relay bid by opener shows the strong option and establishes a GF and relay away.

May not be best, but might be something that can be built off of

[mattias]

I've played pass as 0-7 or 16+ for a while.

Our responses are like this:
1♣ 0-7(8 bal) or 16+
1♦,♥,♠ 8-15 natural
1N 9-15
2♣ 8-15 5+, may have a 4 card major on the side
2♦,2♥,2♠ weak
2N weak both minors

Over 1♣ opener bids 1♦ with 0-7 and otherwise bids as after 1♣-1♦ in your favorite strong club system. If opener is 16+ we assume responder is 0-7. If both hands are 16+ responder has to do something extraordinary at some point. Over p-1♣-1♦ responder passes with 0-7 and other bids show 16+.

I know this isn't the moscito responses, but it adds a nice symmetry.

The other interesting part is the wide ranging notrump response. This isn't really a problem since opener either wants to force to game or signoff.

Over the other bids opener can make a single raise with 5-7 and all other bids show strong hands. I guess you would have a relay and break the relay with minimum unbalanced hands.

I guess the main things I want to say are:

Play 1♣ as 0-7 or 16+
Don't have small ranges for the other bids since opener can not really have an invite.

[helene_t]

I would be more concerned about how to respond to the first seat 1♥ opening than to the first seat pass ....

[glen]

mattias, on 2011-May-12, 01:47, said:

I've played pass as 0-7 or 16+ for a while. ...

Question: say the auction goes Pass(0-7 or 16+)-2♠(by opps)-Pass-Pass;-?, does this mean opener must bid when the strong hand type risking 2NT or the three level on 16-17s? Compare with a big club system, 1♣(16+)-2♠(by opps)-Pass-Pass;-?, now opener passes most of the 16-17 hands and the 18s balanced, and bidding shows extras.

[Crunch3nt]

helene_t, on 2011-May-12, 03:07, said:

I would be more concerned about how to respond to the first seat 1♥ opening than to the first seat pass ....

We have been playing 1H as 7-10 any shape for almost 10 years - responses (and escapes) well sorted. It is a big winner. We actually play 1S as relay over it (up 2 steps), but natural would probably work just as well.

glen, on 2011-May-12, 05:24, said:

Question: say the auction goes Pass(0-7 or 16+)-2♠(by opps)-Pass-Pass;-?, does this mean opener must bid when the strong hand type risking 2NT or the three level on 16-17s? Compare with a big club system, 1♣(16+)-2♠(by opps)-Pass-Pass;-?, now opener passes most of the 16-17 hands and the 18s balanced, and bidding shows extras.

Yes the opener passer does need to balance with the strong hand all of the time. There is a big gain though. When opener in a strong club system passes, and LHO bids 2S, responder doesn't know whether their partner has 0-6 or 7-10 HCP. In our system responder assumes partner is 0-6 and thus does no act on those borderline hands. A big advantage.


Mattias - Good advice thank you. Those principles 1C is 0-6 or 16+, and other bids can be wide-ranging both make good sense.

Olien - Agree with the transfer openings in 3rd/4th with opener relaying with the strong hand - right up my alley. Agree P-1C; 1D being the strong hand and 1H response being weak. I would get rid of that 11-13 NT out of 1C though. Thank you.

[olien]

Yeah, getting the weak NT out of 1♣ is clearly right. I just had a mental block about the fact that opening passer can't have an invite. So, a 3rd seat 1NT as 9-16 should work OK. I might recommend that if 3rd seat opener is 9-13 or so with a 4-card M, that they be able to choose to open by showing the M rather than being forced to open 1NT. Will help decrease penalties, and if they do nail you after you open 1N, will increase the likelihood that the opponents have an M game.

[dake50]

Too much in 16+ unbal. Spades-1suiter,H1,D1,C1;
Spades+Hearts,S+D,S+C,H+D,H+C,D+C;
3-suiter not-S,-H,-D,-C. That's 14 cases.!
Even unmolested, how do you untangle these?
Opponents 'fun' you (not a bid that helps you evaluate), now untangle?
What of balanced missing a stop(their suit unstopped)?
Your T/O Dbl as 3-suits missing theirs? Or bal missing their stop?
Or first step in 2-suiter?
Use 1C(F1) with picture rebids for some of these.

[mattias]

glen, on 2011-May-12, 05:24, said:

Question: say the auction goes Pass(0-7 or 16+)-2♠(by opps)-Pass-Pass;-?, does this mean opener must bid when the strong hand type risking 2NT or the three level on 16-17s? Compare with a big club system, 1♣(16+)-2♠(by opps)-Pass-Pass;-?, now opener passes most of the 16-17 hands and the 18s balanced, and bidding shows extras.

Yes, opener needs to act now with the strong hand. This is a clear drawback compared with strong club systems. Opening the 8-10 point hands helps to make up for this though.

[MickyB]

I'd open the balanced hands 1D, either nat/bal or just bal. Opening 1N in third when you "know" you have no game on is putting your neck on the line, even NV.