[Hilver]

What is in your opinion about 3♥ in this bidding sequence:

1♠ - (2♦) - 2♠ - (3♦)
3♥

(1♠ = 5+-card ♠; 2♠ = 6-9 HCP, 3+-card ♠)

3♥ is:
1. 4-card ♥ (competitive)
2. 5-card ♥ (competitive)
3. trial bid (short suit trial / long suit trial / help suit trial) = invite to 4♠
4. something else?

Thx

Jan

[Bende]

I play it as a general invite to 4♠. Doesn't say anything about hearts.

[Cyberyeti]

Bende, on 2011-June-17, 02:25, said:

I play it as a general invite to 4♠. Doesn't say anything about hearts.

I think this is a very common view, that where there is only one bid, it's a general invite and 3♠ is purely competitive..

[jmcw]

If you playing maximal overcall doubles then it is a straight forward artificial game try in ♠.

[bluecalm]

While I think most people play that it's general game try (me included usually) I think it's better to play it as natural (either 5-4 with at least liht invitational values or 5-5 with any strength). At imps we are not doubling them anyway and finding our heart fit could be critical.

[hotShot]

Without agreements I would take it as competitive(+) with 4♥ and it is forcing to 3♠. It shows additional distributional values and should help partner to reevaluate his hand.

But my view may be biased by the fact that our 1-level openings are limited.

[mgoetze]

jmcw, on 2011-June-17, 04:21, said:

If you playing maximal overcall doubles then it is a straight forward artificial game try in ♠.

Would you care to explain the logic behind this connection for those of us whose brains don't work so quickly?

[mtvesuvius]

mgoetze, on 2011-June-17, 04:38, said:

Would you care to explain the logic behind this connection for those of us whose brains don't work so quickly?

The standard treatment for maximal doubles is to play that double is Maximal (General purpose game try) only if there is no room between the two suits to make a game try, i.e. 1♠ (2♥) 2♠ (3♥) X. When there is room but only one step, the gap bid, which is 3♥ here, is used as the general purpose game try, replacing the meaning of double. When there are two steps or more, bids go back to help suit game tries usually.

[ggwhiz]

I play it as a help suit trial but stretch to raise to 4♥ accepting when I have 4 of them and pard can convert.

Maybe not best but easy on the memory.

[aguahombre]

mtvesuvius, on 2011-June-17, 10:22, said:

The standard treatment for maximal doubles is to play that double is Maximal (General purpose game try) only if there is no room between the two suits to make a game try, i.e. 1♠ (2♥) 2♠ (3♥) X. When there is room but only one step, the gap bid, which is 3♥ here, is used as the general purpose game try, replacing the meaning of double. When there are two steps or more, bids go back to help suit game tries usually.

Agreed. But perhaps there should be a difference between double and 3H on the specific OP auction, and I am not convinced "penalty" is practical or frequent enough to consider.

What do you use as the distinction between the two?

[mtvesuvius]

aguahombre, on 2011-June-17, 10:51, said:

Agreed. But perhaps there should be a difference between double and 3H on this specific auction, and I am not convinced "penalty" is practical or frequent enough to consider.

What do you use as the distinction between the two?

I agree, and was just giving the standard treatment there...

Personally I actually prefer to use maximal doubles whenever the opponents bid and raise a suit, even if there are gaps... The gaps then become HSGTs.
If they introduce a new suit, then penalty doubles unless it is directly below our suit, where double is maximal.

[aguahombre]

mtvesuvius, on 2011-June-17, 11:00, said:

Personally I actually prefer to use maximal doubles whenever the opponents bid and raise a suit, even if there are gaps... The gaps then become HSGTs.
If they introduce a new suit, then penalty doubles unless it is directly below our suit, where double is maximal.

So, in the auction where Spades are ours and Diamonds are theirs, the double of 3D would be HSGT in clubs (the bypassed suit)?

[mtvesuvius]

aguahombre, on 2011-June-17, 11:06, said:

So, in the auction where Spades are ours and Diamonds are theirs, the double of 3D would be HSGT in clubs (the bypassed suit)?

Double is the general purpose game try that couldn't bid 3♥ -- So it is often a HSGT in clubs, but is still more of a quantitative ask.

[Phil]

When someone has 6 plus votes, you can assume its good advice. Bende now has 7.

[MrAce]

aguahombre, on 2011-June-17, 10:51, said:

What do you use as the distinction between the two?

I also think "penalty double" is a very strict explenation.

I bid 3♥ for game try when i make my trial due to my shape rather than hcps, and use DBL as a game try too with more balanced hands and hcps, i am more than happy if pd considers to convert it to penalty.

[jogs]

mtvesuvius, on 2011-June-17, 11:00, said:

I agree, and was just giving the standard treatment there...

Personally I actually prefer to use maximal doubles whenever the opponents bid and raise a suit, even if there are gaps... The gaps then become HSGTs.
If they introduce a new suit, then penalty doubles unless it is directly below our suit, where double is maximal.

HSGT. Is there any agreement among bridge authors what help suit game tries means?
Does opener promise anything in hearts? H xxx Can he ask about hearts? Or does
he promise something in hearts like H Qxx?

[Zelandakh]

jogs, on 2011-June-17, 21:47, said:

HSGT. Is there any agreement among bridge authors what help suit game tries means?
Does opener promise anything in hearts? H xxx Can he ask about hearts? Or does
he promise something in hearts like H Qxx?

A help suit game try is a trial bid in a suit where you need help. This is not the same as a long suit game try even though many players confuse the two. xxx is an ideal holding for a HSGT. Summary:-

Help suit game try = suit where I need help (ie I have losers, please upgrade your cover cards or shortage))
Long suit game try = suit where I have length (upgrade your honours here please, downgrade shortage)
Short suit game try = suit with shortage (singleton or void, please downgrade your non-ace honours)

[barryallen]

mtvesuvius, on 2011-June-17, 11:00, said:

I agree, and was just giving the standard treatment there...

Personally I actually prefer to use maximal doubles whenever the opponents bid and raise a suit, even if there are gaps... The gaps then become HSGTs.
If they introduce a new suit, then penalty doubles unless it is directly below our suit, where double is maximal.

I thought the standard treatment for maximal doubles was always for the double to be maximal and any lower suit bid to be an invitational game form? So the 3♥ now replaces the double, introducing the option of a penalty orientated double? As this now denies partner of a penalty pass option, is there a gain to be had here?

[blackshoe]

Zelandakh, on 2011-June-18, 03:49, said:

A help suit game try is a trial bid in a suit where you need help. This is not the same as a long suit game try even though many players confuse the two. xxx is an ideal holding for a HSGT. Summary:-

Help suit game try = suit where I need help (ie I have losers, please upgrade your cover cards or shortage))
Long suit game try = suit where I have length (upgrade your honours here please, downgrade shortage)
Short suit game try = suit with shortage (singleton or void, please downgrade your non-ace honours)

Interesting. If I remember correctly, in The Modern Losing Trick Count, Ron Klinger defines "long suit game try" as a side suit with at least three cards and two or three losers. What you've described here as a "help suit game try".

[fromageGB]

barryallen, on 2011-June-18, 04:26, said:

I thought the standard treatment for maximal doubles was always for the double to be maximal and any lower suit bid to be an invitational game form? So the 3♥ now replaces the double, introducing the option of a penalty orientated double? As this now denies partner of a penalty pass option, is there a gain to be had here?

I think the gain of 3♥ being general game try amd X being a penalty suggestion, over X being general game try and 3♥ being a suit-showing game try (of whatever format eg xxx or x or HHxx), is there, and is concrete. The idea of partner having a penalty pass option is not so good, as it is unilateral.

If you have X being a penalty suggestion then partner can take it out to 3 of your suit when he is either weak, has undisclosed longer support, or is unbalanced. If you have X as a game try then while partner may pass he risks you having a highly unsuitable hand. Better to have opener offering a penalty than responder forcing one.

In general I am an advocate of a 4 card support raising to the 3 level, but the OP specifies responder's hand as 3+. All the more reason for opener to offer a penalty option.