[vianu2]

U play 2/1 with forcing free bids, opps are sane and is your job how light u open .
As dealer, all NV , You open 1♣ and u have:
1.Less than 3 cards in ♠
2.No heart stopper
Bidding goes: 1♣-1♥-1♠(5 cards)-3♥ (preemptive)
Now is your turn and u want to make a competitive bid 4♣.
Give all 4 hands and show that your 4♣ bidding can't be avoided and either you put pressure on opps either u have found the best contract for you.
Please consider other options, like X over 3♥,pass, etc. You must post a hand which can strictly be described only with the 4♣ bid, and please demonstrate what is your gain if u do so.

[aguahombre]

Yes, I saw the other thread. No, I don't want to be the next fish.

The answer to this question depends too much on the opener's style:

1. What is the discipline involved in opening a forcing 2C?
2. How much do we like preempting partner with 3C, 4C, and 5C openings with undisciplined patterns and strengths?
3. Do we play support doubles when pard has already shown 5, and how high if we do?
4. Maybe other questions I haven't thought of?

These are phrased as questions, but I don't really want answers. Merely pointing that the context of the OP question is relevant.

[Cyberyeti]

aguahombre, on 2011-August-02, 10:09, said:

Yes, I saw the other thread. No, I don't want to be the next fish.

The answer to this question depends too much on the opener's style:

1. What is the discipline involved in opening a forcing 2C?
2. How much do we like preempting partner with 3C, 4C, and 5C openings with undisciplined patterns and strengths?
3. Do we play support doubles when pard has already shown 5, and how high if we do?
4. Maybe other questions I haven't thought of?

These are phrased as questions, but I don't really want answers. Merely pointing that the context of the OP question is relevant.

Indeed, and I add the question I added in the other thread, would an opening 4♣ have shown clubs or hearts.

[vianu2]

aguahombre, on 2011-August-02, 10:09, said:

1. What is the discipline involved in opening a forcing 2C?
GF (3loosers in majors 2 in minors) or balanced 22-23
2. How much do we like preempting partner with 3C, 4C, and 5C openings with undisciplined patterns and strengths?
No matters ( i do like a lot)
3. Do we play support doubles when pard has already shown 5, and how high if we do?
Don't know the meaning of supp X having 8 cards fit
4. Maybe other questions I haven't thought of?

I only asked : show that your 4♣ bidding can't be avoided and either you put pressure on opps either u have found the best contract for you...

[Cyberyeti]

---

Try that, what else do you do other than 4♣(forcing), you don't want to rule out 4♠ if partner has 6. 3N could be right but there's not much you can do about that.

[MrAce]

For those who doesn't know why this thread exists, check http://www.bridgebas...87-atb-problem/ Viranu believes in this auction, 4♣ promises ♠ fit. And eventhough there are so many different hand types that 4♣ needs to be used as natural, i just will write down the same hands i implied in previous thread. He believes the 2 auctions i wrote below are same !

1♣-(1♥)-1♠-pass
4♣

1♣-(1♥)-1♠-(3♥)
4♣



He also believes long ♣ hand should bid 3 NT with all ♥ stoppers and pass with no stopper and no fit to pd, while i think it is ridicilious. And i will answer your question without getting into "How light do we open 2♣" mentioned by Aguaman. There are a lot of hands that upgrades during the auction but not to start with. Here are some hands with regular 13/15 hcps and only 7 card ♣. And pd did not make a preempt doesnt mean he has a strong hand. Maybe he doesn't like to preempt with only 5 ♠ ?

---

5♣ cold, while 3 NT has no play.

---

5♣ cold, while 3 NT has no play.

---

3NT makes, but so does 6♣ Dont tell me that he shd ask aces, because pd will show ♠K as a keycard. He needs to bid 4♣ and then bid 4NT, if pd bids 5♣ he should not have 2 Aces + ♥ shortness.



Here you go, they can make 4♥, while we can make 5♣.

---

[daveharty]

vianu2, on 2011-August-02, 11:31, said:

I only asked : show that your 4♣ bidding can't be avoided and either you put pressure on opps either u have found the best contract for you...

Your wording is a little confusing, but I think you are asking for examples of hands where a 4C rebid (after the auction starts 1C-(1H)-1S-(3H)) is the best, most descriptive rebid. Cyberyeti and MrAce have given several example hands where this is the case, and they can perhaps be generalized as "hands that would have rebid 3C in an unobstructed auction which starts 1C-1S" (although Cyberyeti's example hand is pretty extreme; a 1C-1S-3C rebid with that four-loser moose seems a little weak, although nothing better springs immediately to mind).

[vianu2]

MrAce, on 2011-August-02, 12:33, said:

And eventhough there are so many different hand types that 4♣ needs to be used as natural, i just will write down the same hands i implied in previous thread. He believes the 2 auctions i wrote below are same !

1♣-(1♥)-1♠-pass
4♣

1♣-(1♥)-1♠-(3♥)
4♣

Man i don't think i said the auctions are same i meant i would like to play so.
If u scroll a little u will see that i already asked some competitive players (waste of time because i have guessed the answer before ).

He also believes long ♣ hand should bid 3 NT with all ♥ stoppers and pass with no stopper and no fit to pd, while i think it is ridicilious
Please don't put your words in my mouth!!
And yes, I may have some ridiculous beliefs but not so many...some turned out to be true.


You said opponents are sane, then i think you don't mind that i think they have at least 9 cards fit in this auction. Our hand may gain value by a lot with a lot of different holdings in ♥ suit.
May be interesting (for me) to point out your inconsistency.
But the first thing i noticed is that if i am a "massive" overbider, u are a massive underbider.

At the moment when i suggested a 4cl fitted bid i didn't considered a 4cl forcing bid and now i have your hands and i may reconsider it...
But of course i have to guess, i don't know if your 4cl is forcing or not...

[vianu2]

♥♥♥♥
Do u have glasses? "Here you go, they can make 4♥, while we can make 5♣". why don't u try 5H?

"Try that, what else do you do other than 4♣(forcing), you don't want to rule out 4♠ if partner has 6. 3N could be right but there's not much you can do about that".
So 4♣-4h♥-Partner ?

"5♣ cold, while 3 NT has no play"
What do am i supposed to have over 4♥ to raise to 5♣??
Do you really think if u are going to bid a contract u will play it too?
When i said sane opponents i meant they are able to sacrifice.
Not only you, but your opps know that u are short in spade! And their spade defenses wasted in 5cl

Finally yeah..waste of time..u have competing with your ♣ as u like but they played the final contract
I assume u got info's during that auction and at least u will lead well.

[Cyberyeti]

vianu2, on 2011-August-02, 16:27, said:

♥♥♥♥
Do u have glasses? "Here you go, they can make 4♥, while we can make 5♣".

"Try that, what else do you do other than 4♣(forcing), you don't want to rule out 4♠ if partner has 6. 3N could be right but there's not much you can do about that".
So 4♣-4h♥-Partner ?

"5♣ cold, while 3 NT has no play"
What do am i supposed to have over 4♥ to raise to 5♣??
Do you really think if u are going to bid a contract u will play it too?
When i said sane opponents i meant they are able to sacrifice.
Not only you, but your opps know that u are short in spade! And their spade defenses wasted in 5cl

Finally yeah..waste of time..u bid your ♣ as u want but they played the contract I assume u got info's during that auction and at least u will lead well.

What I don't understand is how you would bid the hands we gave. If you are suggesting pass, what is N supposed to do whether W bids 4♥ or not.

[vianu2]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-August-02, 16:41, said:

What I don't understand is how you would bid the hands we gave. If you are suggesting pass, what is N supposed to do whether W bids 4♥ or not.

Pass??? when i accuse him that he underbids?
Guess♥
Honestly, if 4cl is forcing some of Mr.Aces's hands are described well ..but we still ended in hearts.
If 4cl is not forcing,but only competitive,then i think i don't need that bid. Mr.ace convinced me
Then i would simply bid 5♣ ( anticipative lol).
P.s He needs glasses tough.
The board u gave me..If u ever bid that forcing 4♣ (especially vulnerable against not) then u must have strong agrements to bid that slam over 4♣-5♥

[MrAce]

Deleted : I thought vianu2 and Lurpoa were same people and I am told that Lurpoa and this person are not same.

[MrAce]

vianu2, on 2011-August-02, 16:27, said:

♥♥♥♥
Do u have glasses? "Here you go, they can make 4♥, while we can make 5♣".

I see what u mean, i corrected the spots. I may indeed need glasses as i am coming to age of 46, but that will not help you to get out of the hole you created foryourself.

There is a saying " If you find yourself in a hole, STOP digging it" Unfortunately you insist on emberassing yourself.

- First you said 4♣ promisses ♠ fit, yet you did not find a single supporter for this idea, and if you can not find a supporter in BBO A/E forums, where people are extremely creative, you will not find anywhere else.

- Then you and your expert/pro friend claimed opener should bid 3NT with all ♥ stopper hands, i showed you in other thread and here that this is not true. There are hands we can bid 3 NT, there are hands we can not.

- Then you suggested that opener with only ♣ suit and no fit to pd should pass, ironically now you are questioning the forcing/nf status of 4♣. Now thats really laughable, why do you care if 4♣ is forcing or nf ? You are the one who suggested to pass with those hands or bid 3 NT, lol. 4♣ can not possiby end up anywhere worse than pass or 3 NT, regardless of howmany ♣ we make or if they make only 3♥ or 4♥



-You now saying that they will not letme play 5♣ anyway, as if everyone makes % 100 accurate decision always at 5 level. Lets for the sake of argument say that they bid 5♥ and went down, how does passing 3♥ will get you anywhere better than this ? And how do they know i am short in ♠ ? Maybe my opponents are " Expert " like you and think that i had a ♠ support LOL!


Overall, you are obviously fed up with too many conventions, more than your level can handle, and apparently got lost in whats natural and whats convention. The best way to recover from a nonsense is, to admit and move on. Even the most respected posters in this forum admit their nonsense now and then. It only made them more respected. Trying to defend the nonsense, nomatter what it takes, will only get the hole you are in deeper and deeper and deeper. STOP digging it . Or do what u want, i wouldnt care less at this point to be honest.

[vianu2]

I have to admit that my english is too bad to combat those affirmations.
As I can see, there is a WORLD of difference between your statements and mine.
You are giving new meaning to all i said.

No, my "expert/pro" friend didn't claim that. He only said he would bid 4♥ there and he plays 4♣ as not necessarily fitted hand (or maybe i got it wrong and he said 4♣ denies any spade 3 cards fit).

I said that with good cards and heart stopper i would bid 3NT so that's why i excluded the heart stopper from the 4cl bidding (i assumed 4cl has shown GOOD CARDS).

I said i would pass with bad opening and misfitted hand ( that is, a defensive hand).

Now i say that with a good minors hand i would X (that is, still defensive hand).
What can i have when i X? Not a 2-2-4-5 hand because You don't open 1♣ with this (either open 1♦ either 1NT). What about 1-3-4-5? Still open 1♦. So 1-2-4-6? Or 2-1-4-6? Here i'm in doubt (which of those). 0-3-4-6?
For sure i X.

There you have the 4♦ bid (i assume that may show an offensive 6-4 minors or strong 5-5). Maybe we have the agreement to X with 1-2-4-6 and bid 4♦ with 2-1-4-6 . And if your hand is a strong 5-5 minors opening (that is 18+) 4♦ doesn't seem a risk.
Having xxx in ♥ on the 1♥-3♥ auction i evaluate my xxx as a shortness and i would bid accordingly with that.

There is no reason for me to make use of that 4♣ bidding!! (strange, u asked why do i care of the forcing/notforcing meaning of it)..to only show an offensive misfitted hand!!! (that is as a competitive bid)

You tell me that u bid 4♣ to check if your partner has let's say, the A♠ to bid 5? But if he hasn't this ace, then opps make 4♥+(1) so your 5♣ is still the best contract (now you must sacrifice !!).

No i dunno know too many conventions..i'm sure any experienced pair would have a meaning for every auction i described before.

BUT to make use of 4♣ bidding to check if your 5♣ contract is available is useless. Biding will turn to you (or to your partner) and u are in same trouble: X or 5♣? I think that bidding is useful only when there are exactly 3♥ to play and exactly 4♣.This is laughable not my idea to play 4♣ having support.

Besides, i'm not in a real danger when i pass. If partner has any extras (and not the Dave's qjxxx qxxx let's say a sane 1♠ overcal) then he knows i opened the bidding and he knows i did pass over the 3♥ auction (and he needs little brain to find out why). Then he may not pass 3♥ or even 4♥!!

But to say that i would pass with the hands u posted, this is laughable!
NO i don't pass. I bid 5♣ ! Some hands are still too strong for the 5♣ bid. Then u should establish what is the meaning of the 4♥ bid!! Does it show spade support in a slam interest hand? Is Only a constructive bid, trying to give extra info's when i already know we are in game? It is a strong hand with ♣ having heart cue and slam interest? (that is a 3 losers hand?). Many open a 3 losers hand with 2♣. There are some other options. So if we exclude the 3 losers hand can we bid 4♥ showing either spade support either strong hand with clubs?
Have no clue.

So instead of laughing at me, u better say that 4♣ may be that 3 (4??) losers monosuited hand and then 4♥ be the fitted hand having clubs and spade support.

[vianu2]

[quote name='MrAce' timestamp='1312310016' post='565591']

---

3NT makes, but so does 6♣ Dont tell me that he shd ask aces, because pd will show ♠K as a keycard. He needs to bid 4♣ and then bid 4NT, if pd bids 5♣ he should not have 2 Aces + ♥ shortness.

OK that board is interesting.
I heard 1♥-1♠(forcing)-3♥ and i have Axx ♥. Then i don't count these 2 losers in ♥. How many losers do i have now? Exactly 3 losers. I won't ever bid 5♣ with that hand and 4NT is laughable.
If 4♣ means a 3 losers hand with clubs then i bid 4♣.
If 4♥ shows a hand with clubs and not spade fit then i bid 4♥.Presumably none plays 4♥ with no fit.
Over 4♥ by opps i will take 4♠ as a cue (because i just settled the clubs as trump!
Now i can ask with 4nt keys (if opps allow me ).
But at least my partner knows that i have a 3 losers hand.And he covers 2 of those.

So what was so stupid and laughable when i just suggested to reverse the meaning of 4♣/4♥ ?
If u don't like it, then i bid 4♥ in the board posted in the other thread. No problem.
But for me 3SP is too conservative there. That's all.

[MrAce]

vianu2, on 2011-August-03, 02:05, said:

So instead of laughing at me, u better say that 4♣ may be that hand (3,(4?) losers hand with clubs) and then 4♥ the fitted hand having clubs and spade support.

In this auction

3♠=♠ fit
4♠=♠ fit
4♥=♠ fit
5♠=♠ fit


How many more bids do you want to spare for ♠ fit ?

You can of course bid 5♣ if you want to, but i just gave you some basic hands. If you want to bid 5♣ with those hands thats fine with me, but dont tell me you either bid 5♣ or pass. There are hands in between.

And no, i did not bid 4♣ as forcing. Eventhough i anticipate a ♣ fit from partner, that may not be the case, he may have 6142 hand or whatever, or an aceless hand.

4♣ represents a hand and represents ♣ suit. It represents a 3 or 4 ♣ opener hand, with an extra A or K and maybe a little more. You tell your pd what you have and expect him to revalue his hand. It doesn't mean pd will always make the right move, but will be easier for him, especially if opps keep on bidding. I'd rather bid now, and let pd put his 2 cents on final decision.

[vianu2]

MrAce, on 2011-August-03, 04:16, said:

4♣ represents a hand and represents ♣ suit. It represents a 3 or 4 ♣ opener hand, with an extra A or K and maybe a little more. You tell your pd what you have and expect him to revalue his hand. It doesn't mean pd will always make the right move, but will be easier for him, especially if opps keep on bidding. I'd rather bid now, and let pd put his 2 cents on final decision.

Oooffffffffffffffffffff
This is exactly what i HATE.
To bid 4♣ with a 3,4♣ opening and an extra A or K.
If your 3,4 ♣ opening + extra A/K has 3 losers (after u reevaluate it) is fine with me.

x Kxx x AKQJxxxx
x xxx x AKQJxxxx (do u often open 1cl here?)
x axx xx AKQJxxx
- Axx xx AKQJxxx
x Axx x KQJxxxxx

and so on.

But if it has 4+ losers i HATE IT!
I bid 5♣. Why are you so conservative?

x Kxx KQ KQJxxxx

What am I looking for , bidding 4♣?? I am insane and i bid 5 ( IF i want to bid; at MPs i don't want )

Kx Kx xx KQJxxxx

Do u want to bid 4♣ with that hand??? Wow!!!
At this moment You don't know your partner's shape and strength.
You have nothing more than u said with your 1cl opening : 6 losers hand (counting the k♥ as a loser) and potential play in spades or clubs if partner makes a move.
Yeah i am insane and i PASS.

I edited to add a conclusion.
It seems to me a 3losers monosuited hand ,in that auction, has obviously heart cuebid (axx ,x , or xxx).
So that's why i do like to play 4H showing this type of hand.
So i can use the controversial 4CL bidding for the fitted hand having clubs, which gives a little space too (to establish which fit is better - if there is club fit too).

[OleBerg]

---

[vianu2]

hey that is a 3 losers hand and i would bid accordingly with the 4♣/4♥ meaning.(see previous post)

[OleBerg]

vianu2, on 2011-August-03, 06:21, said:

hey that is a 3 losers hand and i would bid accordingly with the 4♣/4♥ meaning.(see previous post)

No. You tell me. What would you do/have done? Opened 4♣???