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mikeh, on 2011-November-28, 18:49, said:
I suspect that the reason no one has yet discussed fp is that no-one, until you posted, thought that 4♠ could possibly be seen as creating such a force. As someone earlier posted, N might well hold something like KQJ10xxxx and out. I mean, what would you bid with 8=1=2=2 shape, a good suit and zero defence? We'd all bid 4♠ without thinking anything of it.
Personally, I think N acted entirely appropriately at every turn. If the opps have the 10+ hearts they suggest on the auction, and S has a normal 2♦ call, this could be a double game swing and even if 5♠ fails, there has to be some chance that 5♥ makes. It sure sounds like everyone is bidding on shape....it turns out that E and S were bidding on a different planet instead.
Since 4♠ can't logically establish a fp, a double by S would be speculative....not to mention that sometimes the reason for the 4♠ call was a diamond fit in addition to long spades.
Personally, I think N acted entirely appropriately at every turn. If the opps have the 10+ hearts they suggest on the auction, and S has a normal 2♦ call, this could be a double game swing and even if 5♠ fails, there has to be some chance that 5♥ makes. It sure sounds like everyone is bidding on shape....it turns out that E and S were bidding on a different planet instead.
Since 4♠ can't logically establish a fp, a double by S would be speculative....not to mention that sometimes the reason for the 4♠ call was a diamond fit in addition to long spades.
I think that a 2/1 overcall plus a 4S bid should have enough defence to create a FP at the 5 level. you are right that the 4S bidder does not need much defencive strength, but in reality he will typically have one trick because its rare to have a pure hand without even the ace in your suit. The 2/1 overcaller will virtually always have two tricks and three is more normal. I think playing that a 2/1 overcall + any life from partner creates a five level forcing pass is a winner. I'm pretty surprised that you do not think this is a FP situation over 4H.
Your example of a double game swing seems to make my point exactly. The difference between 4hx and 5h when 5s is cold is nothing. If its a double game swing hand, you really want to be playing a FP.
In bridge we play the %, because partner can occasionally have a KQJTxxxx and out and 5h is making is not a reason not to play a FP here. Besides, maybe that day partner has a real overcall with three defensive tricks and it didnt matter anyway. If opener had KQJ and out on the given hand you are still beating it by leading partners suit...and that is hardly uncommon. Obv opponents are on crack here.