[benlessard]

NV im more agressive vs a passed hand partner since slam is out and he can cuebid without game forcing.

(1H)--X--(2H)--???

here partner can be between 3S and 4S. While if hes a passed hand he can bid 3H. (assuming you dont play Leb here)

(1H)-X--(4H)--??? here he might be tempted to go overboard while if hes passed hand its 4S or pass.


Without thinking too much about it ive always assumed this was expert standard. Do you agree ? and Vul is there a difference of style passed hand vs unpassed ?

[Yu18772]

benlessard, on 2011-November-28, 23:49, said:

NV im more agressive vs a passed hand partner since slam is out and he can cuebid without game forcing.
(1H)--X--(2H)--???
here partner can be between 3S and 4S. While if hes a passed hand he can bid 3H. (assuming you dont play Leb here)
(1H)-X--(4H)--??? here he might be tempted to go overboard while if hes passed hand its 4S or pass.
Without thinking too much about it ive always assumed this was expert standard. Do you agree ? and Vul is there a difference of style passed hand vs unpassed ?

You mean P-1x-Dbl auctions or 1x-Pass-2/3/4x- Dbl?
The purpose of t/o is not to sell the contract too low if we can compete, and not to miss games or slams just because opponents opened. The chances for the latter two are greatly undermined by partner's pass, opposite a minimum t/o dbl. In addition - in all the auctions where RHO supported, he usually limited his hand, while LHO didnt - so the strong hand may very well be behind me - unlike 2nd seat when you sit behind the opener. For all these reasons, being opposite a passed hand makes my doubles more conservative, both on points and distribution and hard versus soft values. When we double 4♥ we should be able to witstand partners pass if he holds Qx, xxxx, Jxx, xxxx.
The main additional factors are the level of contract I am forcing, wether we rate to have a higher suit (♠ versus ♥) and of course vulnerability - assuming partner is averagely broke hand (what can I assume about his length in ops suit? and give him half of the missing points) - how much we rate to go down? Is going down doubled may cost a fortune - do ops have game?
Imo, vulnerability is probably the most important factor in ALL competitive auctions, especially if you compete for partscore.

[benlessard]

I meant at the 1 level. IMO many benefits of being a passed hand are gone after a preempt and i agree with your post for over preempts bids
P--(2H)---X---(3H)
??
partner will need to take some guess and bid 4S under pressure. He cannot cuebid 3H to remove some of the presssure.

Just to make my previous post clearer I lower my requirement vs a passed hand when NV because since partner being passed some bids that are usually need for slam or GF forcing are available to keep us low. Like being able to open light in 3rd/4seat since drury is available.

I dont think slam has anything to with it, if you X more agressively partner will need to be more careful and if your double are more sound he will be more agressive and in the end the same % of slams will be bid. Even if the opponent raise it a give and take situation.

(1S)--X--(4S)--??? (X is can be very agressive) -VS- (1S)--X--(4S)--??? (X is very sound)

(1S)--X--(4S)--??? (X is very borderline) --VS-- (1S)--P--(4S)---??? (partner will make an overcall and you will raise to slam)

I dont see a big advantage for bidding good slams and avoiding bad slams one way or another.

For games i agree that light initial action give an edge (edge that is not there if partner is a passed hand) but I find that my good games dont get buried that often (always painful however).


Im a sound X in 2nd seat I know I wont double 1S with x Axxx Qxxx Axxx but the same hand vs a passed hand i will X as a prebalancing. (NV of course)

[Yu18772]

I would double 1S with x,Axxx,Qxxx,Axxx in any seat at NV, and in 2nd I would do it at any vulnerability, opposite passed hand I would be more careful. For example - vulnerable vs not I would double 1S with Kx,Axxx,Kxx,QTxx in 2nd, but not in 3rd.

[MickyB]

Completely backwards imo. The main reason for doubling is to get into the auction when it's our hand, so I'll double on a lot of random 12-counts in 2nd seat that I would pass in third seat. Also, if partner has a maximum passed hand with some shape, he may well be able to double or overcall at the two-level himself, knowing I won't get too excited.

I remember being told about a hand with the auction P-1S-X-4S; X-AP, up one. The initial doubler felt that her passed partner should have given her more leeway, but I was unsympathetic - next time, she'll pass and oppo will have stolen from them.

It is worth noting that my partnerships open quite light, which makes the difference more pronounced.

[dake50]

Get our spades into the auction.
Let their spades alone.
That is, if I push my values
with spades, we might win.
If I push against spades,
no chance to win; have full value.

[mfa1010]

I think I would double with the same hands with good shape.
But when partner is passed I would be a little more cautious with shapes like 4333. But only a little.

[han]

Agree with mfa1010, also with for example a minimal 2344 I might double a 1S opening unless partner is a passed hand.