[Hanoi5]

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What's the meaning of 2NT? I don't mean in this hand, I mean in this sequence, what is the purpose of such a bid? What is West expected to do?

[gwnn]

Forcing, balanced game try. The purpose of such a bid is to describe your hand to your partner so he/she can make a better decision whether we should play 3♥, 3NT or 4♥.

[ArtK78]

gwnn, on 2012-February-01, 05:43, said:

Forcing, balanced game try. The purpose of such a bid is to describe your hand to your partner so he/she can make a better decision whether we should play 3♥, 3NT or 4♥.

Can't be forcing. Partner is a passed hand.

Natural game try - balanced hand, values in diamonds.

Given that partner is a passed hand, the 2NT bid was misguided, IMO.

[Codo]

Forcing balanced game try.

On the given hand, you would like to play it as non forcing, but this will make it difficult to judge between 3 NT and 4 ♥ on stronger hands, so I would stick to the "normal" meaning even with a passed partner.

[gwnn]

ArtK78, on 2012-February-01, 08:46, said:

Can't be forcing. Partner is a passed hand.

In my opinion, it is not a good idea to stop in 2NT when we have a major suit fit, regardless of how many people in our partnership are passed hands.

[aguahombre]

We are looking at West's 4-card support; but a passed had might well bid 2D with 3-card support as well and 2NT by East..descriptive of his 4-card overcall, balanced hand, non-acceptance, and diamond stops is certainly accurate with the East cards. It should not have to be forcing for a partnership which likes to overcall 1M on such hands.

For some of us, however, the descriptive combination above with a 12-count is an impossible holding for a 1H overcall. So, 2NT would be an idle bid.

[Phil]

ArtK78, on 2012-February-01, 08:46, said:

Can't be forcing. Partner is a passed hand.

Does that mean responder can pass a 2♠ or 3♣ game try too?

[ArtK78]

Phil, on 2012-February-01, 10:57, said:

Does that mean responder can pass a 2♠ or 3♣ game try too?

Let's not be silly here.

If everyone agrees that 2NT is a "balanced game try," then it should not be forcing. 2NT may be a reasonble place to play the hand.

Obviously, if opener bids 2♠ or 3♣ as a game try, it makes little sense to play in those contracts when there is a known heart fit. But no trump is different.

[whereagles]

Hanoi5, on 2012-February-01, 04:39, said:

1. What's the meaning of 2NT? I don't mean in this hand, I mean in this sequence, what is the purpose of such a bid?
2. What is West expected to do?

1. Lo and behold, it's NATURAL. Probably 13-14 or so. With 15-17 and a cue across, overcaller just bids 3NT. With less he bids 2H.
2. Whatever he thinks it's right, for heaven's sake. In this case 4H seems normal (we got aces, a doubleton and extra trumps).

[aguahombre]

whereagles, on 2012-February-01, 12:15, said:

1. Lo and behold, it's NATURAL. Probably 13-14 or so. With 15-17 and a cue across, overcaller just bids 3NT. With less he bids 2H.

Interesting. In your world, what would a 1NT overcall have shown?

[gwnn]

ArtK78, on 2012-February-01, 11:55, said:

Let's not be silly here.

If everyone agrees that 2NT is a "balanced game try," then it should not be forcing. 2NT may be a reasonble place to play the hand.

yea I meant to say balanced hand, forcing. usually a game try but could be a strong hand. Anyway, I don't think 2NT is that often a reasonable place to play the hand. It very rarely is and now we even have a major suit fit.

[aguahombre]

I don't understand overcaller making a game try when his passed hand partner has already made a game try. I also don't understand why the overcaller can assume an 8-card fit in hearts.

[nigel_k]

The advantage of the game try being forcing is that you can use it on hands that are not necessarily 5322, but no other game try fits. This may be 6322 or even 7222. Responder justs bids game or not based on whether they like their hand.

Obviously on the actual hand, overcaller should just bid 2♥.

[FrancesHinden]

In general, it's natural showing extra values and a diamond stop.
I think it should be forcing if you don't overcall on 4-card suits very often. If you really think that is a 1H overcall (I don't) then it probably needs to be non-forcing, because you have enough extra high cards to make a game try but no certainty of a fit.

[whereagles]

aguahombre, on 2012-February-01, 12:17, said:

Interesting. In your world, what would a 1NT overcall have shown?

huh...? 15-17 without 5 card major?

[aguahombre]

whereagles, on 2012-February-01, 14:47, said:

huh...? 15-17 without 5 card major?

You are confusing yourself. The hand was balanced with a four card major in this thread. Then partner made a passed hand game invite in hearts, as an advance to your 1H overcall. A hand with a 5-card heart overcall either accepts in hearts or declines in hearts --thereby not giving useful information to the opponents. Only the 4-card overcalls would have use for a natural NT rebid, and 15-17 would have overcalled 1NT in the first place.

[gwnn]

aguahombre, on 2012-February-01, 12:50, said:

I don't understand overcaller making a game try when his passed hand partner has already made a game try. I also don't understand why the overcaller can assume an 8-card fit in hearts.

one day you will

[whereagles]

aguahombre, on 2012-February-01, 15:50, said:

You are confusing yourself. The hand was balanced with a four card major in this thread.

Are you feeling ok? You're not making any sense at all and I'm not going to tell you why.

[petterb]

aguahombre, on 2012-February-01, 10:17, said:

... 2NT by East ... non-acceptance ...

The non-acceptance bid is 2♥, no?

[aguahombre]

Nobody seems to understand or care that partner is expecting a five card heart suit and we have only four, and that responder does not have to have been dealt four card support, so I surrender.