[ggwhiz]

S2000magic, on 2012-February-23, 10:34, said:

To be clear: are you bidding 3NT over the double, or passing the double?

I was bidding 3nt over a pass (instead of double) and passing this double.

[jwccsllc]

S2000magic, on 2012-February-23, 08:20, said:

Both vulnerable, you deal and pick up:

♠ A 8 7 3
♥ A J 4
♦ A K 6
♣ A Q 9

You open 2♣, and the bidding proceeds:

2♣ - 3♦ - Dbl. - Pass
?

Although you play negative doubles through 3♠ (over a one-of-a-suit opening), you haven't discussed this sequence with your partner.

How do you interpret the double?

What call do you make?

I generally play step controls over 2♣ with an approach similar to DOPI, pass <= 1 control, double = 2, and steps up from there with the 3-control consolidated instead of using 2♠ for an A-K and 2NT for 3 kings.

[mikestar13]

I think passing the double is the best bet at MP (dead obvious at IMP). If partner is broke,3NT may not make, and if he chose this sequence with a fair but directionless hand (contrary to "expert standard" in NA), the penalty is very likely to be more than game.

[Cthulhu D]

I have a metaagreement about undiscussed doubles so it would be takeoutish with values. I'm going to pass.

Completely undiscussed with an inexperinced partner I'd assume that it was takeoutish with some values, and I'd pass anyway. I'd probably have opened 2NT though.

[billw55]

ArtK78, on 2012-February-23, 11:20, said:

I consider the double as showing a bust hand. It is a warning that opener proceeds at his own peril. A pass shows values, and, obviously, any bid shows values.

After the double, opener, with a balanced strong hand, should seriously consider passing for penalties.

Agree. I have this agreement with my regular partner - pass is forcing, and we alert it as such (not sure if necessary or not).

[aguahombre]

billw55, on 2012-February-24, 07:37, said:

Agree. I have this agreement with my regular partner - pass is forcing, and we alert it as such (not sure if necessary or not).

We alert it also, and are sure it is necessary. Pass carries a message other than simply nothing to say. We disclose that it denies a bust (or 2nd negative) hand. The opponents can deduce that means opener will not pass, since we can't psyche 2C.

Merely stating the pass is forcing constitutes no disclosure at all, IMO. We state what the call means, not what will happen next.

[jillybean]

aguahombre, on 2012-February-24, 10:14, said:

We alert it also, and are sure it is necessary. Pass carries a message other than simply nothing to say. We disclose that it denies a bust (or 2nd negative) hand. The opponents can deduce that means opener will not pass, since we can't psyche 2C.

Merely stating the pass is forcing constitutes no disclosure at all, IMO. We state what the call means, not what will happen next.

We alert this also. At times people comment along the lines of 'why the heck are you alerting this?'

[aguahombre]

jillybean, on 2012-February-24, 10:48, said:

We alert this also. At times people comment along the lines of 'why the heck are you alerting this?'

And THAT would be an opportunity to "teach at the table"; not preach, merely answer why.

We are never going to let you forget that thread, Jilly.

[billw55]

aguahombre, on 2012-February-24, 10:14, said:

We alert it also, and are sure it is necessary. Pass carries a message other than simply nothing to say. We disclose that it denies a bust (or 2nd negative) hand. The opponents can deduce that means opener will not pass, since we can't psyche 2C.

Merely stating the pass is forcing constitutes no disclosure at all, IMO. We state what the call means, not what will happen next.

We mean that it establishes a forcing auction - we will outbid them or double them, but they may not declare undoubled. I suppose just saying "forcing" may not make this completely clear .. noted for future reference.

[aguahombre]

aguahombre, on 2012-February-24, 10:14, said:

We state what the call means, not what will happen next.

I figure if I state this at every opportunity, one of two things might happen:

---It might have an effect on how people disclose, OR
---I will be able to compete in the Posties with "Hamman eggs in one basket" for boring repetition of 2012.

[FrancesHinden]

The treatment that "double of an overcall shows a bust" is virtually unknown in the UK - I think only immigrants from North America or avid BBO players have even heard of it, never mind play it.The "obvious" interpretation here would be that double is penalties. Standard rule: in a game forcing auction, doubles are penalties.

But also in the UK the treatment of 2D = semi-positive, 2H = double negative is also virtually unknown; the two (sort of) go together i.e. the idea that you have a way to tell partner at once if you have nothing or not.

Playing on BBO it's probably wise to see where your partner is from before guessing what their calls mean.

[ArtK78]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-February-26, 16:10, said:

The treatment that "double of an overcall shows a bust" is virtually unknown in the UK - I think only immigrants from North America or avid BBO players have even heard of it, never mind play it.The "obvious" interpretation here would be that double is penalties. Standard rule: in a game forcing auction, doubles are penalties.

But also in the UK the treatment of 2D = semi-positive, 2H = double negative is also virtually unknown; the two (sort of) go together i.e. the idea that you have a way to tell partner at once if you have nothing or not.

Playing on BBO it's probably wise to see where your partner is from before guessing what their calls mean.

I played double of an overcall as a bust hand long before I started playing 2♥ as an immediate negative and 2♦ as a waiting call showing values. Quite frankly, the two have nothing to do with each other, as demonstrated on this hand.

It is very important in an auction starting with a strong 2♣ opening bid for responder to define his values as quickly as possible, especially in a competitive auction.

[aguahombre]

Yep. Except for the word, "especially". If the opponents do not interfere with 2C, our first obligation should be to stay out of partner's way unless we have something more descriptive to say than just our general strength.