[Fluffy]

1♣-(pass)-1♦-(2♥)


Now, playing up-the-line, opener had 6♣-4♠ and responder 5♦-4♠. both with minimum 12 opposite 7 or so. Does 2♠ promise more strenght than 3♣?

[gszes]

 Fluffy, on 2012-April-23, 16:48, said:

1♣-(pass)-1♦-(2♥)


Now, playing up-the-line, opener had 6♣-4♠ and responder 5♦-4♠. both with minimum 12 opposite 7 or so. Does 2♠ promise more strenght than 3♣?

IMO since a 2s bid does not show club length and can be done with a much more balanced hand w/o a heart stop.
This would require a lot more power than a 3c bid which can easily be made with long clubs and merely
competitive values. This type of problem is why neg doubles flourish because using one here can show the
difference btn a strong hand with spades and a weaker 2 suiter.

[mike777]

was x or pass of 2h an option?

OTOH if all pts in c and s then easy 2s now.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Are you saying Responder has " 7 (hcp ) or so" ?
Doesn't this illustrate the problem with up-the-line ?

Whether you want to call it Walsh or not, 1♦ ( over 1♣ ) " should only be bid for a reason" :
Namely,
1) GF w/4+♦, w/ or w/o a 4 card Major or
2) non-GF w/ 4+♦ and NO 4 card Major.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 gszes, on 2012-April-23, 18:19, said:

This type of problem is why neg doubles flourish because using one here can show the
difference btn a strong hand with spades and a weaker 2 suiter.

There is NO Neg-DBL available in this auction. RESPONDER is the only one who can make a Neg-DBL.
( Admittedly, a T/O DBL has a "negative" connotation but should not be called a Neg-DBL ).

1♣-(pass)-1♦-(2♥)
??
Now the meaning of a DBL here ( by Opener ) needs prior agreement:
1) Penalty,
2) T/O, or
3) 3 card Support for ♦.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
If opener is a minimun 12 hcp, I would PASS and let Responder clarify.

[mgoetze]

 Fluffy, on 2012-April-23, 16:48, said:

1♣-(pass)-1♦-(2♥)


Now, playing up-the-line, opener had 6♣-4♠ and responder 5♦-4♠. both with minimum 12 opposite 7 or so. Does 2♠ promise more strenght than 3♣double?

FYP, and the answer is yes.

[kenrexford]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-April-24, 07:26, said:

There is NO Neg-DBL available in this auction. RESPONDER is the only one who can make a Neg-DBL.
( Admittedly, a T/O DBL has a "negative" connotation but should not be called a Neg-DBL ).

1♣-(pass)-1♦-(2♥)
??
Now the meaning of a DBL here ( by Opener ) needs prior agreement:
1) Penalty,
2) T/O, or
3) 3 card Support for ♦.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
If opener is a minimun 12 hcp, I would PASS and let Responder clarify.

Where is there a rule that Opener cannot make a negative double? I mean, most people do not play that Opener can make a negative double, but that general principle is not somehow a rule of our physical universe. In fact, I have in many partnerships since about 32 years ago played some negative doubles by Opener. The classic example is:

1♣-P-1♦-(1♠)
X

When bidding up-the-line or perhaps Montreal Relay, Opener's double here as showing hearts is a fairly good treatment.

Now, when you say that a "takeout double" has "negative" connotations, but is not a true negative double, this is sort of looking at a glass as half-full or half-empty. I mean, if a takeout double might easily feature only three cards in the other major, but a negative double might occasionally fdeature three cards in the other major, then you are slicing this pretty thin. I mean, does a takeout double have an expectation of 3.5 cards in the other major but the negative double 3.8 cards?

[Fluffy]

 mgoetze, on 2012-April-24, 08:57, said:

FYP, and the answer is yes.

Thx for the answer, but after you fixed I am no longer sure what you mean, is 2♠ just competitive?

[mgoetze]

 Fluffy, on 2012-April-24, 09:20, said:

Thx for the answer, but after you fixed I am no longer sure what you mean, is 2♠ just competitive?

No, I mean with all the merely competitive hands with 4 spades I double, so 2♠ shows real extras.

[awm]

As others have said, its important to play takeout doubles in this sort of sequence. Note this is true regardless of up-the-line bidding; switch openers spades and diamonds and Walsh will give you a similar problem here.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 kenrexford, on 2012-April-24, 09:06, said:

Where is there a "rule" that Opener cannot make a negative double ?

Ken, Ken, Kennnnn ... ( Actually, I feel silly posting this ... maybe you posted tongue-in-cheek ).

It is a definition ( One such reference below ):

Negative Doubles

" A negative double is similar to a takeout double, except that it is bid by the RESPONDER in a competitive auction. It shows that you would like to bid a suit, but that you have insufficient length or strength to do so."

http://www.math.corn...lk/negative.htm

[gnasher]

I don't think 2♠ promises any more than 3♣: both just show a hand that wants to compete. The minimum for a double is similar, but double is typically 4135 whereas 2♠ tends to be 6-4. With 4225 you choose whichever action looks closest.

The upper limit for a double is higher, because it includes all the hands that are too strong for 2♠ and 3♣.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 Fluffy, on 2012-April-23, 16:48, said:

1♣-(pass)-1♦-(2♥)

1♣-(pass)-1♦-(2♥)
DBL

Richard Pavlicek defines the above DBL as a Cooperative Competitive Double:

“I want to compete further but I am not sure what to bid.”

The example he gave was:
1♣ - ( pass ) - 1♦ - ( 1♠ )
DBL
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

EDIT: Good gawd ... I meant Competitive ( "Competitive after one of a suit" )... he was explaining Cooperative vs Competitive [ http://www.rpbridge.net/7g19.htm ] .



Doubles [

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2012-April-25, 04:12

[kenrexford]

A responsive double responds. A takeout double asks to be taken out. A support double supports. A penalty double penalizes. A cooperative double cooperates in something, but I have no idea what that means. A negative double usually means negative about the suit bid, which makes no sense; the modern meaning seems to be cards in the unbid major(s) or both minors if there is no major. What that has to do with negativity is a mystery. But, if the double by Opener tends to show the unbid major(s), it seems more of a negative than anything else. But maybe a double of this type has more of a spin than a charge?

[benlessard]

I agree with Gnasher.

IMO 2S should suggest 6C+4S while the X should suggest short H and at least 3D or a big hand.

One thing I dont do is doubling with a good 4225. I tend to believe that these hand are unsafe. However i think doubling with 3235 with nothing wasted in H is pretty safe.

By default i would play 2S as forcing but not quite reverse strenght but NF is probably better.

[Antrax]

 kenrexford, on 2012-April-24, 19:34, said:

the modern meaning seems to be cards in the unbid major(s) or both minors if there is no major. What that has to do with negativity is a mystery.

I was taught it's "negative" in the sense of "opposite", so the opposite of hearts is spades and vice-versa, and the opposite of majors is minors. Maybe it makes more sense in Hebrew

[Zelandakh]

I believe the origin is that it was negative because it denied being able to make any other (positive) call. Since modern low-level negative doubles typically show something reasonably specific (positive message) the term is something of a misnomer. FWiiW, I like to play the double pretty much the way mgoetze describes, although I have never thought of or described it as cooperative. Surely, if take-out is not good enough, then competitive is a much better description?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 Zelandakh, on 2012-April-25, 03:27, said:

.... Surely, if take-out is not good enough, then competitive is a much better description?

Yes, thx.... I corrected my post # 13 ... it is a Competitive DBL .