[rduran1216]

---

1) What is double?

2) Your call?

[Phil]

Dbl is I want to bid 4s.

[gwnn]

Double is sometimes played as 'I wanna bid 4S partner! (but I am not going to - maybe you have a lot of defence)'. This means that partner has a real 2S bid with a good spade suit (not Jxxxx or something). If you play that 2S is always a 6-carder and so on then I think double DNE.

Anyway, this is a 4S bid because 4H looks like will make.

[aguahombre]

Double by North means he knows more about his hand than his partner does because there was something wrong with the 2S bid; and this overrides the possibility that partner might know more about why he raised to 3S.

So, let's change Gwnn's "DNE" to "SNE".

[mfa1010]

Penalty. West is guessing in this sequence and might be stretching quite a bit, everybody knows that.
So partner just thinks west guessed wrong. Make them guess and make them pay. The odds of a close double with good defense and just a little surprise for declarer are pretty good.

[wyman]

Phil, on 2012-July-04, 09:52, said:

Dbl is I want to bid 4s.

This. He has a shapely 2S bid, and his ODR is very high, even higher now that you've raised.

[gordontd]

mfa1010, on 2012-July-04, 14:25, said:

Penalty. West is guessing in this sequence and might be stretching quite a bit, everybody knows that.
So partner just thinks west guessed wrong. Make them guess and make them pay. The odds of a close double with good defense and just a little surprise for declarer are pretty good.

What hand do you think partner could have for this (given that we have three hearts)? What little surprise could partner have?

[mfa1010]

gordontd, on 2012-July-04, 14:58, said:

What hand do you think partner could have for this (given that we have three hearts)? What little surprise could partner have?

Partner is in 3rd seat and could have random things for his 2♠. The double should be penalty without me having to look at my heart length.
Some might have Axxxxx, Kxx, x, KJx (sing lead). Others Axxxxx, QTxx, x, Kx. I don't know, maybe we need to catch up or something, and the hand could be worse. Note again that 4♥ is also a gambling bid by itself, so we don't need a lock to have decent odds for turning the cube. It is not like I am much of a doubler. But I would hate not to have the option of whacking them when I think they have been guessing a lot and are going to go down. -790 is not the end of the world (at imps).

[dake50]

I want to bid 4S, but your 3S might have intended
to bounce them. Did it? No, then go 4S.

[gordontd]

mfa1010, on 2012-July-04, 15:54, said:

The double should be penalty without me having to look at my heart length.

Actually I think the double should have the meaning ascribed to it by most of the other responses, without you having to look at your heart length. But looking at your heart length does seem to provide additional evidence for it.

[mfa1010]

gordontd, on 2012-July-05, 02:17, said:

Actually I think the double should have the meaning ascribed to it by most of the other responses, without you having to look at your heart length. But looking at your heart length does seem to provide additional evidence for it.

I'm not so sure that the heart length provides evidence for what double should be.
But it does provide evidence for what our unknown partner with unknown bidding style and unknown bidding quality meant it as, if one should find that thing interesting.

I'm familiar with the idea of double as a "I have a 4♠-bid, but just in case..."-bid, and give me 2♠-X-3♠-4♥-X or 2♠-3♥-3♠-4♥-X and I'm with you (and others) on the approach. But not in the actual sequence. Here I need to have a penalty double.

[rhm]

rduran1216, on 2012-July-04, 09:50, said:

---

1) What is double?

Without prior agreement DBL does not exist. If South were on lead it would be Lightner.
The argument that DBL may be a nonexistent idle bid is no excuse to use a meaning invented on the spot.
This is a recipe for countless disasters. If there is no agreement DBL and Pass are not forcing and natural.
I hate partners, who explain afterwards what they wanted their bid to have meant.
Without agreement partner has the option between Pass and bidding 4♠ himself (rare but permissible after the raise).

Quote

2) Your call?

4♠

I can not construct a hand for partner having 3-4 defensive tricks, which would be a reasonable 2♠ weak jump overcall.
Partner might have psyched 2♠ for tactical reasons, which argues for Pass.
Maybe he misunderstood 3♠ as genuine invitation and wants to warn us against bidding 4♠ now.
But I will not risk a disaster here, I bid 4♠. I would certainly Pass if I held a stronger hand with a singleton or void in hearts.
Remind partner afterwards that agreements have to be made prior before being in effect, not invented on the spot.
There is no question that an agreement using DBL to urge advancer to take the sacrifice could make sense here.

Rainer Herrmann

[gwnn]

BTW lightner is something that some people play I think.

[aguahombre]

rhm, on 2012-July-05, 04:38, said:

Maybe he misunderstood 3♠ as genuine invitation and wants to warn us against bidding 4♠ now.

Your recommendation to bid 4 spades now is a practical one. However, the above side-thoughts are intriguing. If partner misunderstood 3♠ as a genuine invitation, then he is too weak to have legitimate thoughts (or believes we are).

Whether he believes 3S was intended as a genuine invitation or not, even considering the possibility we would now bid 4♠ without the double is insulting.

We are bidding 4♠ now as an attempt to salvage what we can; and that is probably being insulting to this partner. My real partner and I use a general rule that any double behind an opponent who has unilaterally rebid the same suit without any indicated show of support or strength from his CHO is penalty.

Our heart-count makes this unlikely, but we have seen people fall in love with their 6-baggers before so 4HX is where we would play.

[akhare]

I would interpret it was saying that pard look liberties with the 2♠ call opposite passed hand (maybe something like AXXXXX KX (AQ xxx)).

In the absence of agreements, I would take the X as penalty and pass. On a bad day, opener might be 1=7=(14) or something like that with say AQJ...7th of hearts and AKQx in the minor side suit and 4♥ might very well roll home...

[aguahombre]

akhare, on 2012-July-05, 10:26, said:

On a bad day, opener might be 1=7=(14) or something like that with say AQJ...7th of hearts and AKQx in the minor side suit and 4♥ might very well roll home...

If that is a bad day, I will take it. We get to foul the board.

[akhare]

aguahombre, on 2012-July-05, 10:33, said:

If that is a bad day, I will take it. We get to foul the board.

Not sure I follow that...perhaps my attempt at the 7♥411 with 4 in either minor didn't come across?

[rduran1216]

My hand was Q10xxxx xx Kx Axx. I had intended it to mean I had some defense and didn't want to unilaterally bid 4S if 4H doesn't make. I think the 3S bid can be just as wide ranging as the 2S bid. Anyhow it was a disaster when partner left it in.

[gordontd]

rduran1216, on 2012-July-05, 11:44, said:

My hand was Q10xxxx xx Kx Axx. I had intended it to mean I had some defense and didn't want to unilaterally bid 4S if 4H doesn't make. I think the 3S bid can be just as wide ranging as the 2S bid. Anyhow it was a disaster when partner left it in.

Why would you even think of bidding 4S with your hand - you weren't invited?

Actually the 3S bid can be much more wide-ranging than the 2S bid, which is why you are usually expected to leave it to your partner to decide what to do.

I do think your partner should have worked out to pull to 4S though.

[gszes]

rduran1216, on 2012-July-05, 11:44, said:

My hand was Q10xxxx xx Kx Axx. I had intended it to mean I had some defense and didn't want to unilaterally bid 4S if 4H doesn't make. I think the 3S bid can be just as wide ranging as the 2S bid. Anyhow it was a disaster when partner left it in.

Your p heard your weak 2 bid and you have a weak 2 bid even if its a tad more defensive than most it is hardly out of line---P
opted to bid 3s and you have zero clue why they did that. You have no idea of how many spades they have or how many hearts
if they could not afford to bid more than 3s or if they just wanted to make it a tad more difficult for the opps to find a minor suit fit.
I tried for a long time to imagine a reasonable x of 4h and gave up and this hand type never occurred to me (sorry for the good try
with 7411 but it sems a 1s bid would do better there). If p were near the top of their passed hand with a spade fit they would have
begun with 3h so thinking they might have stuff is especially wrong opposite a passed partner.

Oh i would bid 4s because whatever p thinks they have I dont have what it takes to support the x for penalties.