[jillybean]

---

[BunnyGo]

Bidding 4 spades seems a little pushy to me, but it works here as all finesses work for the opponents.

[TimG]

BunnyGo, on 2012-August-11, 16:50, said:

Bidding 4 spades seems a little pushy to me, but it works here as all finesses work for the opponents.

If I was partnering myself, I think I'd be -420.

[gszes]

not sure what your agreements about preempts are but 3h seems off target here.
This hand has a lot of playing potential and kqx of spades behind opener gives the
hand some defensive potential also. I would bid 2h. we cannot predict the bidding
after that so lets get back to the original bidding.

The only "unlimited" hand at the table is opener. 3h limits w 3s limits n and e 4h bid can
be almost anything. The 4s bid can be made with authority knowing the opps will have
precious little reason to x and if rho x the oppd of making 4s tend to go up drmatically
since any finesses will work. 4s is a 2 way bid 1 it may well make and 2 it is at worst
a small insurance policy vs 4h.

[Cyberyeti]

Would have overcalled 2♥ rather than 3 which would have resulted in 4♠ being doubled I think.

3 finesses are wrong in 4♠, the club position is lucky, on average luck both contracts might make, but one probably should so I want to bid 4♠. It's just possible both contracts are -1 but at teams that's not that expensive.

[MrAce]

BunnyGo, on 2012-August-11, 16:50, said:

Bidding 4 spades seems a little pushy to me, but it works here as all finesses work for the opponents.

Which finesses are working for opponents ? I mean you commented as if 4♠ would be a bad decision had their finesses not work, which is not neccesarilly true...

He bids 4♠ rightly or wrongly, his double spade finesse loses, his ♦ finesse loses and he goes down 1 in 4♠. I admit friendly club split in 4♠ doesnt have an impact when they play in hearts but still...

[BunnyGo]

MrAce, on 2012-August-12, 04:08, said:

Which finesses are working for opponents ? I mean you commented as if 4♠ would be a bad decision had their finesses not work, which is not neccesarilly true...

He bids 4♠ rightly or wrongly, his double spade finesse loses, his ♦ finesse loses and he goes down 1 in 4♠. I admit friendly club split in 4♠ doesnt have an impact when they play in hearts but still...

The diamond K is in the slot, and the spade A is onside, and one cannot help but make 4 hearts.

I wouldn't bid 4♠, but it's a great sac as it turns out. Especially undoubled.

[MrAce]

BunnyGo, on 2012-August-12, 04:21, said:

The diamond K is in the slot, and the spade A is onside, and one cannot help but make 4 hearts.

I wouldn't bid 4♠, but it's a great sac as it turns out. Especially undoubled.

Yes i understand that, i was trying to say "If their ♦ finesse didnt work then your side will be making 4♠ due to losing only 1 ♦. So their ♦ finesse working makes it a good sacrifice while if their finesse didnt work it would make 4♠ a good game to play and make.

NOTE : i am not advocating the 4♠ bid.

[ahydra]

I would have bid

1S (4cM, weak NT)-2H-X-2S (good H raise)
p-4H all p

Find 4S very pushy - though, as others have pointed out, it works well here. The thing is that from N's point of view, 4S is nowhere near making and 4H may just go off.

ahydra

[aguahombre]

Comments:
1)I believe Jilly plays 5cM.
2)3H by West/1S is wrong.
3)3S by North/3H is on the wimpy side. (see thread where a decent L.R. would bid 4S).
4)4S by South is certainly pushy, but maybe he knows North is a wimp.
5)Anyone want to guess what would have happened if North bid 4S/3H? Same result or better for N/S?

If it started:
1S (2H) 3H (4H)

Then a good thing could happen for E/W --playing at 4H for instance, since neither North nor South has another call.

[TimG]

aguahombre, on 2012-August-12, 18:05, said:

Comments:
2)3H by West/1S is wrong.

I think "wrong" is wrong. Perhaps not your style, but not "wrong".

Quote

3)3S by North/3H is on the wimpy side. (see thread where a decent L.R. would bid 4S).

I don't think 3♠ is wimpy. With a four-card limit raise, I would understand just bidding 4♠.

Quote

5)Anyone want to guess what would have happened if North bid 4S/3H? Same result or better for N/S?

North could have bid 4♠ over 4♥ if you're just looking for results.

Quote

If it started:
1S (2H) 3H (4H)

Then a good thing could happen for E/W --playing at 4H for instance, since neither North nor South has another call.

South took another call opposite the actual competitive raise, why not opposite the limit raise?

[aguahombre]

So, that means you disagree.

[jillybean]

The 3♥ bid is mine. I know it's not perfect but 2♥ doesn't seem right either.

[TimG]

jillybean, on 2012-August-13, 08:04, said:

The 3♥ bid is mine. I know it's not perfect but 2♥ doesn't seem right either.

I think it is important to be on the same page as your partner when it comes to preempts. I doubt it can be proven to most people's satisfaction that preempting with the West hand is right or wrong. What is most important is that you find a style that you and your partner are comfortable with.

[Phil]

jillybean, on 2012-August-13, 08:04, said:

The 3♥ bid is mine. I know it's not perfect but 2♥ doesn't seem right either.

Why? 3♥ is a serious underbid. I think 4♥ is fine too.

Kathryn: I have a project for you. The next time you play in a live game, I want you to push the envelope until you get doubled and go for 1100. Apologize to your partner beforehand. Insane jumps to slams do not count. I'm referring to every day, bread and butter auctions that you need to be pushing harder on.

Please report back to the forums and I want you to brag about this. Its a very important part of a player's development to push until they find sensible limits, and then only back off to an aggressive, but rational style.

You will receive the "1100" merit badge

[phil_20686]

aguahombre, on 2012-August-12, 18:05, said:

Comments:
2)3H by West/1S is wrong.
3)3S by North/3H is on the wimpy side. (see thread where a decent L.R. would bid 4S).
4)4S by South is certainly pushy, but maybe he knows North is a wimp.

If it started:
1S (2H) 3H (4H)

Then a good thing could happen for E/W --playing at 4H for instance, since neither North nor South has another call.

I disagree with all of this. I could bid 2H instead of 3. Fair enough, just a style thing. KQx is a lot of defence for a preempt, but you should also mix your preempts up a bit.

3S is not on the wimpy side, showing a `good raise' here is crazy. You just have a normal constructive raise to 2M if rho passed. I think 4S was pushy. Partner will stretch already to bid 4S, as he knows he is forced to bid 3S on sub par hands, and so he needs to bid game more to take the pressure off you.

[ahydra]

As I mentioned, I'd bid 2H on West, but I'd rather bid 4H than 3H.

And North is nowhere near worth 3H over 2H surely? Even playing 5cM it's nothing more than a limit raise (3S over 1S without interference). Or perhaps this is another partnership style thing, but phil_20686's point about opener rebidding 3S on minimum hands is a valid one. (I passed in my putative auction because this is a sub-minimum. Need roughly a poor 13-count to bid again in my style)

ahydra

[aguahombre]

ahydra, on 2012-August-13, 14:09, said:

As I mentioned, I'd bid 2H on West, but I'd rather bid 4H than 3H.

And North is nowhere near worth 3H over 2H surely? Even playing 5cM it's nothing more than a limit raise (3S over 1S without interference).

If it is a limit raise without interference, then the way to describe it is to bid 3H over 2H unless you use 3S over 2H as invitational, and I don't think that is likely.

[ArtK78]

There were a number of questionable actions during the auction, but it appears that the par result would have been obtained if 4♠ were doubled.

Since 4♥ is cold and 4♠ is down 1 trick, the par result is 4♠x -100 NS.

The preempt by West on a good hand makes it nearly impossible for EW to double 4♠. If I were to preempt with the West hand (and I am not saying that I would) it would be 4♥, not 3. The main problem with the preempt is that you have two nearly sure trump tricks against a spade contract, and if partner is short in spades partner is likely to bid one more when that is not in your best interest.

[jillybean]

Phil, on 2012-August-13, 12:27, said:

Why? 3♥ is a serious underbid. I think 4♥ is fine too.

Kathryn: I have a project for you. The next time you play in a live game, I want you to push the envelope until you get doubled and go for 1100. Apologize to your partner beforehand. Insane jumps to slams do not count. I'm referring to every day, bread and butter auctions that you need to be pushing harder on.

Please report back to the forums and I want you to brag about this. Its a very important part of a player's development to push until they find sensible limits, and then only back off to an aggressive, but rational style.

You will receive the "1100" merit badge

Ok, I will try this on Wednesday and report back.
My partner may not be thrilled, he has spent the last few years breaking me of my -1100 habits.