[Phil]

quiddity, on 2012-August-21, 11:37, said:

Do you really think that downgrading a misfit 7-count is masterminding?

yes

[phil_20686]

quiddity, on 2012-August-21, 11:37, said:

I'm not confident that passing is best but it feels pretty close. Certainly close enough that I'm amazed at comments like " What are the issues??!?" and "Curious why this hand was posted" and "THERE ISN'T A PROBLEM". Do you really think that downgrading a misfit 7-count is masterminding?

Its really not close. You could still easily be making game in spades: Axxx Axxxx KQx A. Or you could be making 3N opposite 18-19 balanced. Passing here is bizarre. There is just so much upside here.

Even without the jacks I would still bid. You have a reasonable suit, you are happy to play a 4-3 spade fit in 2 spades. What are you going to do if it goes P 2d P P back to you? bid spades now? be happy with your jxxx defending their fit at the two level?

This hand is a non event. Bid one spade, see what happens. Even if the opps have a spade fit, it might be best to bid 1S so they wont play 2S.

[Foxx]

---

At the table, I bid 1♠ and played it right there. Down two.

There was no route to a plus score. After the hand, I thought partner should have bid 1NT. This wouldn't be making, but it would only be down one. Minus 200 was a multi-way tie for bottom, minus 100 would have been close to average. If I passed, everything would depend on what LHO did. If she passed and partner played 1♥ doubled, we would have a zero; if LHO bid 1NT and we held it to 1, we would be above average.

[quiddity]

Partner cannot pass 1♠ with a small doubleton. She should not play you to have responded on drek here, so she needs to get to 1nt when it's right.

[dkham]

Tough hand. I agree that 1NT from West is probably right, but may lead to a double from South (not necessarily on this hand)

[the_clown]

I would have passed. Partner opened third seat, (in my understanding can be quite light) and will have another chance to bid if he really has a good hand. After that I still can do something encouraging right? I cant imagine that partner will sell out to 2m with 18-19 bal or something similar.

I dont mind defending anything they bid. Only positive thing about 1♠ is that it is lead directing. I wouldnt be happy if S doubles 1♠ for penalty holding 4♠ and then we concede silly 500/800 only because partner decided to open a bit lighter.

[wyman]

the_clown, on 2012-August-22, 08:22, said:

Only positive thing about 1♠ is that it is lead directing.

...and that we accurately describe our hand so that we might find the right strain
...and that by showing positive values we might bid a game
...and that we don't leave partner guessing when 1Hx comes back to him

[SteveMoe]

kenrexford, on 2012-August-21, 07:31, said:

You have a normal spade suit, playable even if spades split 4-1.
You have no great desire to play 1♥ doubled, which might happen if you pass.
You have a desire for a spade lead should LHO bid something.

So, what on earth is the issue?!?!?

Not an issue - an opportunity...
1♠ is F1R. 1N is not. Do you want to play 1N from your side or 2♥ opposite say 1=6=34? We'll only find a minor when opener is 54. I am expecting Opener and LHO to hold no more than 5 ♠s, so I do not expect us to play in ♠s. Indeed, LHO advancer might insert 2♠ over my 1N - might be juicy...

[sailoranch]

Resulting: If we pass, aren't opps likely to bid and make 2♠ on the actual cards?

[ggwhiz]

quiddity, on 2012-August-20, 17:05, said:

we're probably better off defending.

On a spade lead.

[the_clown]

wyman, on 2012-August-22, 09:00, said:

...and that we accurately describe our hand so that we might find the right strain
...and that by showing positive values we might bid a game
...and that we don't leave partner guessing when 1Hx comes back to him

1. I think that in most cases there is no right strain, if we bid now we may get too high on a misfit hand. Partner will rarely 4 spades and even if he has 2S on a 4-1 break will not work out too well.
2. If partner has a good hand he will bid again. (If they bid 2m, he will surely double with good hand a singleton or 18-19 bal and a doubleton. If they bid a suit where he has 3 cards and 18-19 bal thats just bad luck). And even if we miss a game once in a while thats ok in MP, because when we dont lead a game I think that passing leaves us in a much better position.
3. South who is passed hand will rarely be able to pass the double he needs some values and some good hearts. Partner is sitting over the hearts so even playing 1Hx should not always produce a bad score.

[the_clown]

ggwhiz, on 2012-August-23, 09:26, said:

On a spade lead.

Depends what they are playing. Against some minor suit contract I will try to collect as many H ruffs as I can.
Should S bid 3N I can still double for a ♠ lead.........

[the_clown]

SteveMoe, on 2012-August-22, 23:54, said:

Not an issue - an opportunity...
1♠ is F1R. 1N is not. Do you want to play 1N from your side or 2♥ opposite say 1=6=34? We'll only find a minor when opener is 54. I am expecting Opener and LHO to hold no more than 5 ♠s, so I do not expect us to play in ♠s. Indeed, LHO advancer might insert 2♠ over my 1N - might be juicy...

Ho can 1♠ be round force if I am a passed hand? + if partner opened light in 3rd seat there is a fair chance that they will X you in 1NT and you have nowhere to go

[aguahombre]

the_clown, on 2012-August-23, 09:54, said:

Ho can 1♠ be round force if I am a passed hand? + if partner opened light in 3rd seat there is a fair chance that they will X you in 1NT and you have nowhere to go

There is something to be said for third seat players who don't screw around and won't pass 1/1. Things are definitely different opposite people who are hyperactive. Not bidding 1♠ might gain when he actually has clowned; and it is wrong when he had a legitimate opening bid and gets no help from responder.

[han]

quiddity, on 2012-August-21, 11:37, said:

Do you really think that downgrading a misfit 7-count is masterminding?

Yes I also think that it is completely ridiculous masterminding. I don't really expect many bad things to happen after bidding 1S. About the worst is partner rebidding 1NT or 2H and playing there, no big deal. But if we don't bid 1S, partner will have a harder time on defense, and if they bid 2m it will be hard for us to get to spades if we belong there. Give partner a 13-count 4-5-2-2 distribution and the opponents bid 2C or 2D. I think we're done with if we don't respond 1S now. There's no reason to make bridge this difficult.

[quiddity]

han, on 2012-August-23, 11:21, said:

Yes I also think that it is completely ridiculous masterminding. I don't really expect many bad things to happen after bidding 1S. About the worst is partner rebidding 1NT or 2H and playing there, no big deal. But if we don't bid 1S, partner will have a harder time on defense, and if they bid 2m it will be hard for us to get to spades if we belong there. Give partner a 13-count 4-5-2-2 distribution and the opponents bid 2C or 2D. I think we're done with if we don't respond 1S now. There's no reason to make bridge this difficult.

That's an unfortunate distribution for us but letting the opps play their vul 7 card fit doesn't have to be wrong. Maybe both contracts are down. But I agree, it's probably bad.

I wonder how likely it is for partner to have 4 spades and be unable to make a competitive double. Probably not very likely. And it seems like playing 1N or 2H when wrong could be a big deal at matchpoints.

[han]

Do you think that partner should double 2D on a 13-count when he is 4-5-1-3? I wouldn't if my partner couldn't bid over 1H. If my partner has passed and I make a takeout double in direct seat, I have extra values.

1H - Dbl - p - 2D
Dbl = takeout, extra values.

[quiddity]

han, on 2012-August-23, 11:49, said:

Do you think that partner should double 2D on a 13-count when he is 4-5-1-3? I wouldn't if my partner couldn't bid over 1H. If my partner has passed and I make a takeout double in direct seat, I have extra values.

1H - Dbl - p - 2D
Dbl = takeout, extra values.

Yes, I think he should. I don't think he needs significant extras to double with that shape. Even if responder has a 5 count we don't want to let them play 2D.

[quiddity]

phil_20686, on 2012-August-21, 12:45, said:

Its really not close. You could still easily be making game in spades: Axxx Axxxx KQx A. Or you could be making 3N opposite 18-19 balanced. Passing here is bizarre. There is just so much upside here.

I'm confident that the downside of partner having a 1NT or heart rebid far outweighs the upside of partner having a 17 count with 4 spades, three aces and a stiff club. I'm pretty confident that, as far as getting to the optimal contract is concerned, passing is best at this vul. Opener is just too likely to have a weak notrump or a long heart suit.

It's quite possible that what I gain in the bidding I would lose in the play because of misdefense or a bad lead or something. Maybe bidding is right for that reason. I don't have the necessary experience to weigh these factors and be confident of the best approach.

[Phil]

quiddity, on 2012-August-23, 12:35, said:

I'm confident that the downside of partner having a 1NT or heart rebid far outweighs the upside of partner having a 17 count with 4 spades, three aces and a stiff club.

You know 1♠ isn't forcing, right?