[FrancesHinden]

I want to weigh in on the use of double on the third hand.
On this particular auction, playing that double denies four spades is, IMO, a very bad agreement.
If you have to bid spades every time you have four of them then three things go wrong:
(i) partner won't ever raise when you have a 5-3 fit, so you have to bid more than you want to with five spades
(ii) partner undercompetes with 4-card support when you have a 9-card fit (same result as above)
(iii) you end up in a 4-3 spade fit with a hand such as Kxxx xx KJ10x Kx opposite Qxx xx Axxx AJxx (and go off instead of making a partscore) or opposite AQx x Axxxx Qxxx (where you'd like to be in 5D)

If, instead, double may or may not have four spades, then almost nothing can go wrong:
(i) if partner bids 2S, you bid 3C to show both minors (2NT I think should be natural-ish, but you could play x-then-2NT as minors instead) or you raise spades or you pass
(ii) if the next hand raises and partner bids 3S you do the same thing a level higher
(iii) if the next hand raises and partner passes you can double again if you want.

This way you don't miss a 5-3 spade fit because partner won't have 5 spades in a normal take-out double.

The auction 1S x 2S x is harder, there is some merit in playing that as promising 4 hearts although I prefer to play that 1S x 2S x P 2NT shows 4 hearts (so bidding a minor denies them) which also works

And 1H x 3H x must not deny spades, you definitely can't afford to have to bid 3S with 4 on that auction, you will play a stupid contract far too often.

[ggwhiz]

JLOGIC, on 2012-August-31, 15:01, said:

I would bid 4S all day on hand 2.

Fair ball but could your 3♠ bid go as low as #1 with say, a singleton? Might be a better use to invite a game OR a dive.

[phil_20686]

JLOGIC, on 2012-August-31, 15:01, said:

Thanks timo, thought I was nuts reading this thread, I would bid 4S all day on hand 2.

I was about to write this. I mean this is a a potentially contested auction. Are we seriously saying that we will sit 4H if they bid 4H on our left? I am close to bidding 4S on bd 1 aswell. My partner would probably do it. In fact, I would definitely do it at teams. Sure we might not have a ten card fit, but 4S might be a good sac, it might be hard for LHO to judge.

I vote: 4S 4S x.
I have no problem with 2S on the first one either, i dont see any other choice on hand 2 tbh, and on the third one I dont mind a cuebid if that is your style. It seems like an ok hand to force to game on. I really think 3S is a horrible distortion, and should be reserved for hands with 5 spades. Otherwise its very hard for partner to sensibly decide what do to over 4H.

[lalldonn]

I think 4♠ is too much on hand 2, call me wimpy. It seems to me like bidding partner's hand for him. If he has a singleton heart and four spades he will almost always accept the invitation. If he doesn't have one of those things he may still accept but if he rejects I think he will usually be right. If he has neither of those things then he will really need a bit extra for us to want to be in game. Blocking the opponents on the 4 level is possible but not a huge concern to me, I'd rather bid my hand as accurately as I can. Even if they do bid 4 of some minor then it only helped them if they can then smartly keep bidding on the 5 level, assuming it didn't make some important difference to how they defend which doesn't seem that likely to me.

Despite all those words I don't fault 4♠ that much, that was just my case for inviting. I feel like I'm being a wimp so maybe I'm letting my logic override my instincts too much. To me the one big gain of bidding 4♠ is opener might bid 5♥, which might be worth sacrificing a little accuracy to achieve.

[phil_20686]

lalldonn, on 2012-September-01, 09:05, said:

I think 4♠ is too much on hand 2, call me wimpy. It seems to me like bidding partner's hand for him. If he has a singleton heart and four spades he will almost always accept the invitation. If he doesn't have one of those things he may still accept but if he rejects I think he will usually be right. If he has neither of those things then he will really need a bit extra for us to want to be in game. Blocking the opponents on the 4 level is possible but not a huge concern to me, I'd rather bid my hand as accurately as I can. Even if they do bid 4 of some minor then it only helped them if they can then smartly keep bidding on the 5 level, assuming it didn't make some important difference to how they defend which doesn't seem that likely to me.

Despite all those words I don't fault 4♠ that much, that was just my case for inviting. I feel like I'm being a wimp so maybe I'm letting my logic override my instincts too much. To me the one big gain of bidding 4♠ is opener might bid 5♥, which might be worth sacrificing a little accuracy to achieve.

Does that make me crazy for wanting to bid 4S on hand one then?

Feels like, when partner is bidding 4S, giving opener the chance to show values/second suit, by bidding 4m is actually quite a big loss. Not only will it improve their leads when they do lead vs 4S, but it will also improve their 5/4 decision making. Further, since he has 4m available, when he bids 4M it warns his partner off further competition, so opener has a good chance to control the auction. I am pretty sure on this auction, for example, that I have 3N written in as sac-suggesting, so one can focus attention on either minor, or show a hand with extra aggression without focus. DO many people play that? I would assume that after you have a major suit fit and the opponents have jump competed in their major, that playing 3N is not normally an option.

[ggwhiz]

phil_20686, on 2012-September-02, 03:59, said:

Does that make me crazy for wanting to bid 4S on hand one then?

Not at all. I'm finding this thread interesting for the different approaches that all seem to have merit.

I like the Frances take on the double for #3 and am still interested in opinions on what a 3♠ bid looks like, especially from the 4♠ bidders on #2.

Currently for me it's big offence upside but a touch of defence so that pard can take their best shot over a 4♥ bid including double.

A 4♠ bid on #1 denying any defence makes sense and so do a lot of other things here that may change my mind but bidding 4♠ on #1 AND #2 feels like handcuffing pard.

[phil_20686]

ggwhiz, on 2012-September-02, 11:26, said:

Not at all. I'm finding this thread interesting for the different approaches that all seem to have merit.

I like the Frances take on the double for #3 and am still interested in opinions on what a 3♠ bid looks like, especially from the 4♠ bidders on #2.

KQxxx xx Kxxx xx, for example, is a text book three spade bid.

I play lebensohl in this sequence so I normally lebensohl into three spades if I have four spades and invitational values (8-11).