[PhilKing]

jogs, on 2012-November-15, 15:44, said:

Plan to lead ♠A. Hope to find correct
continuation after seeing dummy.

It's too late.

Lead a heart. Get in, lead a heart. Get in, lead a heart. Get in and lead a heart!

I don't know what the hand is, but this beats it. If partner is broke, a top spade lets it through.

[gnasher]

PhilKing, on 2012-November-15, 16:31, said:

Lead a heart. Get in, lead a heart. Get in, lead a heart. Get in and lead a heart!

I don't know what the hand is, but this beats it.

I'm going to risk looking foolish by saying that this doesn't beat it when the opponents have a 5-4 spade fit and two heart stops. Heart to the queen, spade, heart to the ace, spade, heart ruffed in the short hand, spade, heart ruffed in the long hand, draw the last trump.

But I agree that it's the right lead, because it works whenever partner has a spade or a heart honour, or when ♥Q is singleton (because we'll lead the king).

[PhilKing]

gnasher, on 2012-November-16, 02:13, said:

I'm going to risk looking foolish by saying that this doesn't beat it when the opponents have a 5-4 spade fit and two heart stops. Heart to the queen, spade, heart to the ace, spade, heart ruffed in the short hand, spade, heart ruffed in the long hand, draw the last trump.

But I agree that it's the right lead, because it works whenever partner has a spade or a heart honour, or when ♥Q is singleton (because we'll lead the king).

Partner almost never has a spade void - he passed over 4♠.

If, by chance, he has 0265 yarborough, I doubt we can beat it.

I agree with leading the king. Dummy is perhaps more likely to have stiff ace than queen, but that leaves declarer with probably Qxx, so we may as well go for the holding that helps us.

[phil_20686]

gnasher, on 2012-November-16, 02:13, said:

I'm going to risk looking foolish by saying that this doesn't beat it when the opponents have a 5-4 spade fit and two heart stops. Heart to the queen, spade, heart to the ace, spade, heart ruffed in the short hand, spade, heart ruffed in the long hand, draw the last trump.

But I agree that it's the right lead, because it works whenever partner has a spade or a heart honour, or when ♥Q is singleton (because we'll lead the king).

You for got about when partner has the stiff !s J.

[gnasher]

phil_20686, on 2012-November-16, 07:10, said:

You for got about when partner has the stiff !s J.

I didn't forget it - I disregarded the possibility because it's irrelevant. If partner has any spade we're beating the contract by force.

[JLOGIC]

PhilKing, on 2012-November-15, 16:31, said:

It's too late.

Lead a heart. Get in, lead a heart. Get in, lead a heart. Get in and lead a heart!

I don't know what the hand is, but this beats it. If partner is broke, a top spade lets it through.

BUT YOU MIGHT GIVE THEM A RUFF/SLUFF!!!!!

[PhilKing]

JLOGIC, on 2012-November-16, 12:28, said:

BUT YOU MIGHT GIVE THEM A RUFF/SLUFF!!!!!

My bad - must have been drunk.

I can always reevaluate after seeing dummy and switch to one of my singletons.

[jogs]

PhilKing, on 2012-November-15, 16:31, said:

It's too late.

Lead a heart. Get in, lead a heart. Get in, lead a heart. Get in and lead a heart!

I don't know what the hand is, but this beats it. If partner is broke, a top spade lets it through.

I don't see it. Every time I lead a heart from that holding
it is Ax on one hand and Qx on the other.

[gnasher]

jogs, on 2012-November-16, 16:07, said:

I don't see it. Every time I lead a heart from that holding
it is Ax on one hand and Qx on the other.

Heart to their queen.
Spade to our queen
Heart to their ace
Spade to our king
Heart, ruffed by East
Spade to our ace
Heart, ruffed by West

How many trumps do East and West have left?

[PhilKing]

gnasher, on 2012-November-16, 16:36, said:

Heart to their queen.
Spade to our queen
Heart to their ace
Spade to our king
Heart, ruffed by East
Spade to our ace
Heart, ruffed by West

How many trumps do East and West have left?

It's even better than that:

Heart king to their ace
Spade to partner's jack
Heart to their queen
Spade to our queen
claim six down

Worse is that the top spade crashing partner's jack possibly lets it through!

[jogs]

gnasher, on 2012-November-16, 16:36, said:

Heart to their queen.
Spade to our queen
Heart to their ace
Spade to our king
Heart, ruffed by East
Spade to our ace
Heart, ruffed by West

How many trumps do East and West have left?

Try both ruffs by East or both ruffs by West.
Maybe many of the trumps played on separate tricks.
South may only make his 3 top spades if trumps
are 5-4.
If you blindly defend four trumps off the top,
E-W makes 2 spades, 1 heart. E-W must then find
7 minor suit tricks to make this hand.

[gnasher]

jogs, on 2012-November-17, 08:44, said:

Try both ruffs by East or both ruffs by West.

Suppose that East starts with four trumps. He plays a trump at trick 2, won by my queen. He plays a trump at trick 4, won by my king. He ruffs trick 5. He plays a trump at trick 6, won by my ace. How many trumps does he have left?

Quote

Maybe many of the trumps played on separate tricks.

Are you suggesting that they can crossruff? Have you tried constructing a layout where this works (given that it's a 4-4 fit) and leading turmps will beat the contract? I'm not saying that it's impossible, but I think it's hard to produce a credible layout.

Quote

South may only make his 3 top spades if trumps are 5-4.

Yes. I said that in post 22.

[Fluffy]

gnasher, on 2012-November-17, 15:23, said:

Are you suggesting that they can crossruff? Have you tried constructing a layout where this works (given that it's a 4-4 fit) and leading turmps will beat the contract? I'm not saying that it's impossible, but I think it's hard to produce a credible layout.

I will do for you , with only 4 side tricks they cannot crossruff 6 more without me overruffing at some point.

[PhilKing]

You can take a horse to water ...

[jogs]

Assume trumps are 4=1=4=4 around the table.
You start with four trumps and they make 4♠.
That means partner has nothing. They make 1 spade,
1 heart and 8 minor suit tricks.

gnasher, on 2012-November-16, 16:36, said:

Heart to their queen.
Spade to our queen
Heart to their ace
Spade to our king
Heart, ruffed by East
Spade to our ace
Heart, ruffed by West

How many trumps do East and West have left?

Your declarer wont play that badly. After a spade to our king
he will know trumps don't split 3-2. He will not continue with
a spade to the ace on trick 6. He will go to plan B. He will
just cash his 8 minor suit winners. If there are problems with
communications, he may go down 2. He will not go down
a telephone number.

[gnasher]

jogs, on 2012-November-19, 10:40, said:

Your declarer wont play that badly.

I didn't say declarer would play that badly. You said "Try both ruffs by East or both ruffs by West", and I was explaining why that was impossible (given that it's a 4-4 fit).

Quote

After a spade to our king
he will know trumps don't split 3-2. He will not continue with
a spade to the ace on trick 6. He will go to plan B. He will
just cash his 8 minor suit winners. If there are problems with
communications, he may go down 2. He will not go down
a telephone number.

I didn't say that he was going for a telephone number. All I said was that declarer would go down (ie at least one down) on a heart lead, unless they were in a 5-4 fit and had two heart stops.

[Fluffy]

jogs, on 2012-November-19, 10:40, said:

Assume trumps are 4=1=4=4 around the table.
You start with four trumps and they make 4♠.
That means partner has nothing. They make 1 spade,
1 heart and 8 minor suit tricks.

Of course when my opponets bid game on 8 trumps containing neither of ♠AKQ I should expect them to have a combined 20 count lol

Be real, partner has 1 card at most, unless it is a club honnor it will most likelly be useless after 4 rounds of spades, if it is ♥Q people will point at you after seeing 4♠ making on the traveller.

[Jinksy]

JLOGIC, on 2012-November-14, 16:53, said:

My general rule is that X just says I had a good hand and was bidding to make unless that is impossible. So, a 3rd seat 4M or a 4M overcall followed by X is just a good hand (aka, I'm showing some defense). I might do those with a 16 count or whatever.

I would never open 4M in first or second seat with a high HCP or high defense hand. Since that hand type is impossible, I play it as "I want to bid 5M" meaning I have a lot of extra offense.

Would that go for lower level preempts, to? Eg in third seat would you open 2H with something like

xx
AQTxxx
KJx
Qx

and then X if LHO overcalls and it's passed back around to you?

[ArtK78]

Jinksy, on 2012-November-19, 13:35, said:

Would that go for lower level preempts, to? Eg in third seat would you open 2H with something like

xx
AQTxxx
KJx
Qx

and then X if LHO overcalls and it's passed back around to you?

Aside from the fact that this is a one opening bid, one would never open a 2-level preempt or a 3-level preempt and then double back in to show "extras."

Sometimes one might make a four-level preempt with extras for tactical reasons. Those are the times when one might want to double back in to show that the 4 level opening was not purely preemptive.

There are rare cases when one might double after opening a two- or three-level preempt. Those cases are lighter doubles, and ask partner to find your void suit for a ruff. It is hoped that the ruff on opening lead will be sufficient to defeat the contract.

[Jinksy]

ArtK78, on 2012-November-19, 14:49, said:

Aside from the fact that this is a one opening bid,

To what end? I’m not interested in game, so I bid the contract I think I can make and let the opponents worry about whether it’s their hand or not.

Quote

one would never open a 2-level preempt or a 3-level preempt and then double back in to show "extras."

Obviously not in first or second, but that’s why I’m raising the question – opposite a passed hand, pre-empts can be somewhat heavier than usual. It wouldn’t have occurred to me to double for that reason before, but the situation seems comparable here.