[ggwhiz]

neilkaz, on 2013-January-04, 21:10, said:

The only negative is that I don't want a ♦ lead,

I also don't want pard bidding as if their diamond piece or two are a big plus (or shortness a big minus). Put the club Ace in the diamond suit and I'm in though.

[mgoetze]

ggwhiz, on 2013-January-05, 13:56, said:

I also don't want pard bidding as if their diamond piece or two are a big plus (or shortness a big minus). Put the club Ace in the diamond suit and I'm in though.

This is why I like bidding systems where 11-13 (or 11-14, or 12-14) balanced hands are bid as such and not as "I've got diamonds and oh, incidentally, I'm probably balanced."

[quiddity]

I suspect it doesn't matter much in the long run whether you open this hand or pass.

[lalldonn]

quiddity, on 2013-January-05, 16:00, said:

I suspect it doesn't matter much in the long run whether you open this hand or pass.

Thank you that's exactly what I was going to say! Do it if you want and don't do it if you don't want. In the long run it will be about even, ergo why this is a borderline hand. It just doesn't really matter.

[jillybean]

unimportant perhaps until it impacts partnership harmony

[lalldonn]

Impacts partnerships harmony?

[Bbradley62]

jillybean, on 2013-January-05, 17:43, said:

unimportant perhaps until it impacts partnership harmony

It should only impact partnership harmony if one partner goes against partnership agreement. You and your partner should specify whether this is, or is not, an opening hand and stick to that specification. It essentially doesn't matter which direction you choose: just pick something and be consistent.

[jillybean]

lalldonn, on 2013-January-05, 17:46, said:

Impacts partnerships harmony?

Where one partner is hopping mad that this hand was opened while the other partner was happy to open. It's not a case of someone bidding or passing with this hand where the decision turned out badly, if that was the case I wouldn't be posting it.
I'd like to come up with some opening hand rules that make sense but I am now thinking that perhaps you can only go so far with "rules" and you have to leave some room for judgement with these borderline hands.

[jdeegan]

Lord Molyb, on 2013-January-05, 10:26, said:

10-13 1NT!

Seriously, the Kamikaze 1NT opener is fully legal in all games, at least in North America. It can be a barrel of fun to play. Marshall Miles came up with a fully developed system for responder - a sort of two way Staymanish approach. At one point the ACBL had to decree that 1NT openers had to have at least 10 HCP - you could open a 9 or less HCP 1NT, but responder couldn't use any artificial bids, even Stayman.

I first ran across it at a sectional tournament in Michigan in the early '90's where no less than Meckwell were playing it. Good enough for them, good enough for me. Then Marshall Miles published his response system in no less than the ACBL monthly bulletin. The dreaded Kamikaze has been largely discarded since because top level players have learned to deal with it.

Still, it was fun in its day. Getting out of 1NT doubled could be an adventure in itself - e.g. Moscow Escapes, et.al. I still recall a Grand National Teams qualifier match from Jackson, Mississippi between two fairly good local teams where one particular board was a push - plus 1280 (I think that's one NT doubled and redoubled making two) at both tables. And, I wasn't on either team, just a kib.

[lalldonn]

jillybean, on 2013-January-05, 18:20, said:

Where one partner is hopping mad that this hand was opened while the other partner was happy to open. It's not a case of someone bidding or passing with this hand where the decision turned out badly, if that was the case I wouldn't be posting it.
I'd like to come up with some opening hand rules that make sense but I am now thinking that perhaps you can only go so far with "rules" and you have to leave some room for judgement with these borderline hands.

I guess I don't understand why someone gets hopping mad that their partner did or didn't open a borderline hand. Are we perhaps exaggerating their reaction or are they really that unstable?

[jillybean]

Perhaps

[kenberg]

I feel pretty strongly that partners have to leave each other some room. I voted for pass, in the minority at first but maybe not overall, but perhaps if I was feeling lucky or aggressive I would open it. I mentioned the tens, but one of them even has a nine to back it up. At least one poster remarked on the fact that the diamonds are not something you want to encourage partner to lead if the opponents buy the hand. This figured into my views. As he said, if the diamonds looked more like the hearts, I would feel better about it.

In my bidding, I trust that partner's decisions somewhat resemble decisions I would make and work from there. If we have styles that are too incompatible then it probably just won't work for us to play together. But surely sometimes he will evaluate hands differently than I do.Btw, at first it was not clear to me whether someone opened this hand and you thought that he shouldn't, or didn't open the hand and you thought that he should. Just what did happen? I think we can gather that it didn't work out well, but I am just curious. Of course the outcome of one hand is not proof of anything.

Btw, if I did open it a diamond and partner responded a spade, I would bid 1NT. With a decent three card holding and a little shape I like to raise, but not on this hand. For one thing, those tens are apt to play a bigger role in NT.

[RSClyde]

I have a question for anyone who doesn't open such a hand: I'm being sincere not rhetorical so I'd really like to know this. When you pass a hand that you'd make an invite with if partner opens later, don't you end play yourself into punishing partner for opening light?
I mean aren't you basically forced to bid again on this auction with that hand:
P 1♦
1♥ 2♥
?
Doesn't this kind of wipe out partner's 3rd seat liberties?

[jdeegan]

RSClyde, on 2013-January-06, 21:30, said:

I have a question for anyone who doesn't open such a hand: I'm being sincere not rhetorical so I'd really like to know this. When you pass a hand that you'd make an invite with if partner opens later, don't you end play yourself into punishing partner for opening light?
I mean aren't you basically forced to bid again on this auction with that hand:
P 1♦
1♥ 2♥
?
Doesn't this kind of wipe out partner's 3rd seat liberties?

I love to take third seat liberties. Having taken them, however, pard should Pass, not raise one ♥ to two.

You are not trying to kill the opps by opening light third seat, just trying to make their life miserable having to cope with an unfamiliar auction. Remember, when your pard passes one ♥ the opps don't know whether your ♥ fit is seven, eight or even nine cards. Plus, your RHO is in the balancing seat, and he/she didn't bid over pard's one ♣ or ♦ opening bid, so their hand is likely not ideal for balancing either.

[SteveMoe]

I will open this hand 100% of the time. Yes, AAK is great to have. If your bidding style punishes 11 HCP opening bids, then passing might still be necessary.

First bid is too much of an advantage to worry.

This hand qualifies under the Rule of 22 too...

I rate this hand as about 12.5 HCP (2A's 1K, 2-10's)... (4.5, 3, 1.5, 0.75, 0.25) (A, K, Q, J, 10)

So Rule of 22 says 12.5 + 8 + 2.5 = 23.

3=4=4=2 means we likely have 3 suits to choose from.

Loser count is 8, with an adjustment (for 2A's and no Q's) to 7.

Go ahead - compete!

[P_Marlowe]

Pass, unless I play an 1 NT opening, that includes this hand.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

RSClyde, on 2013-January-06, 21:30, said:

I have a question for anyone who doesn't open such a hand: I'm being sincere not rhetorical so I'd really like to know this. When you pass a hand that you'd make an invite with if partner opens later, don't you end play yourself into punishing partner for opening light?
I mean aren't you basically forced to bid again on this auction with that hand:
P 1♦
1♥ 2♥
?
Doesn't this kind of wipe out partner's 3rd seat liberties?

Could be, but 3rd seat openers in a minor, should be full openers.

I understand the theory behind 3rd seat openers in a major, although I dont apply it myself,
but doing similar things with a minor suit opening, wont work.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2013-January-05, 18:20, said:

Where one partner is hopping mad that this hand was opened while the other partner was happy to open. It's not a case of someone bidding or passing with this hand where the decision turned out badly, if that was the case I wouldn't be posting it.
I'd like to come up with some opening hand rules that make sense but I am now thinking that perhaps you can only go so far with "rules" and you have to leave some room for judgement with these borderline hands.

You need to have a line in the sand, that cannot be crossed, even if judgement tells you different.

My rule is always to have 10HCP, but important is, that this does not mean, I will open all hands with 10CP.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[RSClyde]

jdeegan, on 2013-January-06, 22:33, said:

I love to take third seat liberties. Having taken them, however, pard should Pass, not raise one ♥ to two.

You are not trying to kill the opps by opening light third seat, just trying to make their life miserable having to cope with an unfamiliar auction. Remember, when your pard passes one ♥ the opps don't know whether your ♥ fit is seven, eight or even nine cards. Plus, your RHO is in the balancing seat, and he/she didn't bid over pard's one ♣ or ♦ opening bid, so their hand is likely not ideal for balancing either.

See that's what I simply can't stomach. I have to pass with 4 card support and let the opponents right in rather than to raise and shut them out. What was the point of getting in if I don't even both competeing normally thereafter?

I have to endure this auction or something similar:
P P 1♦ P
1♥ P P X
P 1♠ 2♥ P
P 2♠... cat's out of the bag now. I mean I saw this coming: they're never letting us play 1♥ in an 8 card fit and they shouldn't be letting us play 2♥, and won't now that they've found their fit.

[Cyberyeti]

I open a 12-14 no trump on this with all the intermediates, so I guess I'll open 1♦ too.