[CSGibson]

Simple bread and butter question. Opps are good, but sometimes take swingy actions. Do you take out the double (which is take-out oriented) playing cross imps (BBO online scoring, so crappy field)? If not (or if so), how close is it? Would you make a different choice at a different vulnerability?

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[akhare]

There's a lot to to be said about leaving in high level Xs with flat hands, but this one strikes me as being an exception. At this vulnerability, it's reasonable to expect the opener to either have 8 clubs (or an offensively good 7♣4xx hand).

So, right or wrong, color me for 4♥ at this vulnerability (but P otherwise).

[JLOGIC]

4H and it isn't close at all. Like not even remotely.

[CSGibson]

JLOGIC, on 2013-January-18, 20:02, said:

4H and it isn't close at all. Like not even remotely.

There goes all objectivity from my poll

[aguahombre]

CSGibson, on 2013-January-18, 21:00, said:

There goes all objectivity from my poll

Not really. There are quite a few of us who don't jump on bandwagons. I am very surprised, though, at the caliber of the passers. It must be closer than I thought. I don't think it is the same as the thread where we had to go to 5-level.

[JLOGIC]

Who are the passers? I find it unfathomable unless they thought it was a 4S opener lol.

[aguahombre]

JLOGIC, on 2013-January-18, 22:29, said:

Who are the passers? I find it unfathomable unless they thought it was a 4S opener lol.

I see josh and helene...and of course over 4S a pass is just as obvious to me. Maybe they did misread it.

[mcphee]

I can not understand why pass would ever be considered. In fact I would expect 4H to be a decent spot even facing 3 cards(some times). Mt feeling is if you convert this double to penalty you are going to have an upset partner and no future team mates.

[MickyB]

I thought it was a 4S opening at first. I would bid 4H, however I do have a theory that people don't pass doubles of 4m enough due to the psychological barrier from conceding a doubled part-score.

QJT9
Jxx
T7xx
xx

4H-X-P-?

I think most people would give much more consideration to passing here than in the original problem, even though the only difference scorewise is that 4C-X making scores less than 4H-X making. Of course, if you wish to argue that the definitions of the opening and/or the double are different and thus 4C-X is more likely to be making, I am willing to be convinced, but I don't think that is what is going through people's minds in these positions.

[lalldonn]

Omg I did think it was a 4S opener lol. I almost even posted a rant about how bad pulling would be.

[pigpenz]

Having played in Portland before Justin or Chris were born I have seen firsthand what some of the Portland experts open 4minor on!
Since that was part of the question that is what I based my pass on....against all others I would have bid 4♥

[kayin801]

I thought it was close, but I bid 4♥.

[JLOGIC]

lalldonn, on 2013-January-19, 08:17, said:

Omg I did think it was a 4S opener lol. I almost even posted a rant about how bad pulling would be.

Yeah, I almost did the same thing lol. I think mentally we thought it had to be 4S.

Quote

. I would bid 4H, however I do have a theory that people don't pass doubles of 4m enough due to the psychological barrier from conceding a doubled part-score.

I agree with this theory in general, however, I would not consider passing 4H X with QJT9 of spades and Jxx of hearts and I'm surprised anyone would. This is especially true at w/r, however I just wouldn't pass at any vulnerability, we have good spades and no trump trick*.

I remember an old BWS poll which was like with what shapes with 4 spades and a zero count would you pass 4H X (I think it was equal vul though). To me QJT9 is is a lot different than a zero count, we can afford to ruff stuff/whatever in dummy, so it is obviously excellent for offense and it still contributes little to defense.

*Yeah, I realize Jxx of trumps might be worth something but I'm not exactly banking on it.

[dustinst22]

I thought it was a 4S opener and was thinking, man no way can I bid here then saw the comments. Over 4C I feel like I have to bid.

[Fluffy]

need some table feeling, if partner has ♣A passing is probably best, but its so unlikelly that I would pull, I can't remember ever seeing a 4m open at this vulnerability.

[pigpenz]

Could someone give aclue as to what they think a 4minor bid is?
There is big difference between four of a major and a minor!
Took four hours to come up with 1000 hands
4♣ makes 11 0/0
4♥ makes 32 0/0
So unless 4♣ showsAKQtenth doubles stands to gain just as much or more than bidding ♥

[akhare]

pigpenz, on 2013-January-19, 18:17, said:

Could someone give aclue as to what they think a 4minor bid is?
There is big difference between four of a major and a minor!
Took four hours to come up with 1000 hands
4♣ makes 11 0/0
4♥ makes 32 0/0
So unless 4♣ showsAKQtenth doubles stands to gain just as much or more than bidding ♥

I was trying to run the same simulation , but ended having to simplify the script because putting too many restrictions prevented it from generating hands.

Note that decided to give West 14+ points and didn't put in too many shape restrictions because of the above reasons. A more reasonable approach might be to exclude modest hands with 6+ major.

Anyway, 4♣ rolled home pretty comfortably most of the times and occasionally was -1.

I might try to see if the original Dealer is faster than Redeal (Python):

from redeal import *

Top4 = defvector(2, 2, 1, 0.5, 0.5)

def accept(deal):
return (len(deal.south.clubs) == 8 and (deal.south.hcp < 11) and (Top4(deal.south.clubs) >= 4) and
deal.east.hcp <= 4 and balanced(deal.east) and deal.west.hcp >= 14)

def do(deal):
print(deal.dd_tricks("4CN"))

[pigpenz]

it took along time cause to come up with hands with alot of clubs and putting south in with that hand,
genrally the stronger the take out double is the more four clubs goes down. I guess it comes down to
what type of hand would someone bid four a minor on giving up on 3NT and not bidding five of a minor.
from just the hands i looked at your J♣ is usually gonna take a trick....about 60% time four clubs
is down two for plus 500.

I was using Dealmaster Pro for my simulation

[mgoetze]

JLOGIC, on 2013-January-18, 22:29, said:

Who are the passers?

There is never any confusion as to whether Lall or Donn voted in a poll with the lalldonn name, because it is so well-known that Lall always ignores the poll feature of this forum.

[Fluffy]

I want to know the opener's hand, I can't conceive bypassing 3NT with ♣A