[antonylee]

Edit: 3♣ is like 3-8 or 9-11 (2♠ is not strictly forcing, which may be a bit underbid but well). Otherwise I think that yes, I have more than enough clubs to bid them twice.

[straube]

antonylee, on 2013-January-25, 15:30, said:

Edit: 3♣ is like 3-8 or 9-11 (2♠ is not strictly forcing, which may be a bit underbid but well). Otherwise I think that yes, I have more than enough clubs to bid them twice.

I haven't studied Polish very much though I read a book on it once. How do you establish a GF if not jumping? I had the impression that you were in a GF.

[antonylee]

WJ05 has 1♣-1♦-2M=21-23ish; 1♣-1♦-2♦=art. GF (now 2♥=double negative and higher bids are whatever you decide to play, in our case 2♠=5-8 balanced, 2N-3♥=transfers (5-6 in a major, ~7-11 in a minor) (perhaps it would be more useful to use 2♠ for some harder stuff like two or three-suiters but honestly the GF opposite 1♦ came up approximately once in one and a half year so we didn't really optimize this))
Yes it means that strong hands with 5♦4x are quite hard to bid. Usually some combination of canape sequences and specialized jumps to the 3-level handle them.

If you think not GF'ing with opener's hand is ridiculous (perhaps it is, indeed...) I could also see
1♣-1♦
2♦-2N (clubs)
3♠-4♣
6♣

More opinions are welcome

[straube]

antonylee, on 2013-January-25, 16:04, said:

WJ05 has 1♣-1♦-2M=21-23ish; 1♣-1♦-2♦=art. GF (now 2♥=double negative and higher bids are whatever you decide to play, in our case 2♠=5-8 balanced, 2N-3♥=transfers (5-6 in a major, ~7-11 in a minor) (perhaps it would be more useful to use 2♠ for some harder stuff like two or three-suiters but honestly the GF opposite 1♦ came up approximately once in one and a half year so we didn't really optimize this))
Yes it means that strong hands with 5♦4x are quite hard to bid. Usually some combination of canape sequences and specialized jumps to the 3-level handle them.

If you think not GF'ing with opener's hand is ridiculous (perhaps it is, indeed...) I could also see
1♣-1♦
2♦-2N (clubs)
3♠-4♣
6♣

More opinions are welcome

I think I would open it a strong 2C and then I'd be catapulted into game after bidding two suits (I suppose I could rebid 2N). I guess you're on the cusp between a 2S and a 2D rebid...but one auction may have easier continuations than the other so not sure what I would do. Maybe Justin can advise...

[antonylee]

By the way the reason why 2♠ does not create a GF is that 1♠ (and 1♥) also has to handle WNT hands (1♣-1♦-1N=18-20), and thus is NF (responder is expected to pass with 0-(3)4). So hands with 21-23ish have to go to 2M.

[FM75]

OCP
This could go two ways (actually 3, but will eliminate the spade ask as first option).
Both will start out assuming that North upgrades his hand and makes a positive reply in clubs.
1♣ - 2♣ 8+ points and 5+ clubs
2♦ - 2♥ control ask, 0-2

Here it diverges. I can hand off control to partner with 2N. That will likely end up in 3NT. Might as well bid it direct. No need to divulge any more to ops.

Or,
3♣ - 4♠ trump ask in clubs, AQ 7th. 6C/6N is cold. Need to figure out the other suit distribution.
5♦ - 5♥ no first or second round control - p has at least 3 ♦
5♠ - 6♣ p is 2=1=3=7, or 2=0=4=7 can't afford to ask about Hearts because void takes us past 6NT.

I am not that good at IMP vs MP calculations, but 1-3 is 4:1 and the 1 is 50% on spade hook. so 8:1 to make 7♣

6N = 100%, 7♣ just under 90 - (or 100% on a spade lead)

What is the expert opinion?

[the_clown]

Precision

1♣-1♥ 8-11 any
1♠-2♣
2♥-3♣
4♣-4♥ (RKCB ♣ || 1KC)
4♠-5♦ (Queen Aks, yes)
6♣-7♣ (Invitational to 7, showing all Key Cards and extras|| accept..... ) 5NT would show that 1KC is missing or no Grand Slam interest at all

[nige1]

straube, on 2013-January-24, 20:00, said:

#16. You are South and dealer. V vs V. imps. Uncontested auction.

Jasmine ♣ with some lucky decisions ...
North ♠ 94 ♥ 7 ♦ 742 ♣ AQJ8763: __ 2♠ 3♥ 3N 5♣ 6♦
South ♠ AQ632 ♥ AK93 ♦ AK ♣ K4: 1♣ 3♣ 3♠ 4♥ 5N 7♣

• 1♣ = Art, 16+.
• 2♠ = Transfer, Good ♣ suit
• 3♣ = Key-ask.
• 3♥ = 1 key.
• 3♠ = Ask in ♠ (3N would be to play).
  
• 3N = No 1st/2nd round ♠ control.
• 4♥ = Ask in ♥.
• 5♣ = 1st/2nd ♥ control + trump Q.
• 5N = Trump/trick inquiry
• 6♦ = 7 trumps (6♣ would show 6).
  
• 7♣ = Punt.

Marks, IMO: 7♣ = 10. 6N = 7. 6♣ = 6. 5♣, 5N, 7N = 4. 4♠ = 2.
In the light of comments by Free, Zealandakh, and Straube, I've now added a trump-length asking-bid to the original Jasmine ♣ auction. Thank you all.

This post has been edited by nige1: 2013-January-28, 09:34

[Free]

nige1, on 2013-January-25, 21:46, said:

Jasmine ♣ with some lucky decisions ...
North ♠ 94 ♥ 7 ♦ 742 ♣ AQJ8763: __ 2♠ 3♥ 3N 5♣
South ♠ AQ632 ♥ AK93 ♦ AK ♣ K4: 1♣ 3♣ 3♠ 4♥ 7♣

• 1♣ = Art, 16+.
• 2♠ = Transfer, Good ♣ suit
• 3♣ = Key-ask.
• 3♥ = 1 key.
• 3♠ = Ask in ♠ (3N would be to play).
  
• 3N = No 1st/2nd round ♠ control.
• 4♥ = Ask in ♥.
• 5♣ = 1st/2nd ♥ control + ♣Q.
  
• 7♣ = Punt.
  

How can you punt if you don't even know that North has a 7 card suit? When he only has 6♣, grand is really poor because you can only count 11-12 tricks.

[Zelandakh]

JLOGIC, on 2013-January-25, 14:47, said:

I would definitely bid 4C not 3S, my hand is AQJxxxx and out I'm certainly going to bid clubs at least twice, I really want to play in clubs and I want to get across the message to partner that that is what my hand is about.

And you would really describe AQJxxxx as a bad suit? That is the context of the auction under discussion. Personally I think that is nonsense; just how good does a suit need to be to stop being "bad"?

antonylee, on 2013-January-25, 16:04, said:

If you think not GF'ing with opener's hand is ridiculous (perhaps it is, indeed...)

More opinions are welcome

I raised exactly the same question in my earlier post and have essentially the same structure as you here. I think the South hand is worth a GF at the end of the day but I do not think it is ridiculous to ask the question.

[straube]

Free, on 2013-January-26, 02:21, said:

How can you punt if you don't even know that North has a 7 card suit? When he only has 6♣, grand is really poor because you can only count 11-12 tricks.

Yeah, I think the auction should result in 6C, too. OK if we put you down for 6C? Btw this is what we're supposed to be doing...helping each other improve the auction or reach the indicated result.

Also FM75 was asking what his final bid should be and I would vote for 7C because he found out about the seventh club. Wish I had

[straube]

Zelandakh, on 2013-January-26, 09:08, said:

And you would really describe AQJxxxx as a bad suit? That is the context of the auction under discussion. Personally I think that is nonsense; just how good does a suit need to be to stop being "bad"?

Justin certainly didn't describe AQJxxxx as a bad suit. He wanted this hand to rebid 4C to show that he really wanted to be in clubs and that's what his hand was all about. I was the one who questioned whether a 3S bid was more flexible, but I didn't describe AQJxxxx as a bad suit either. Anyway, I know Justin and some others here have better judgment about this sort of thing and am glad they can help out.

[Zelandakh]

straube, on 2013-January-26, 09:48, said:

Justin certainly didn't describe AQJxxxx as a bad suit.

The context was this auction:

antonylee, on 2013-January-25, 12:56, said:

1♣-1♦ (various hand types)
2♠-3♣ (0-8 or 9-11 with a bad minor... yes that is quite horrible)
3♥-4♣
4♦-4♥ (keys? 1)
4♠-4N (♣Q? yes and no king)
6♣

Note that I also mentioned the possibility of bidding 3♠ in a similar spot and rejected it for the same reasons, so it is not like I am disagreeing with Justin here, only with the "bad minor" decription.

And I still disagree with relknes' bid of 3NT in that spot. Apparently he does too as he has stealth-edited the post.

[relknes]

Zelandakh, on 2013-January-26, 10:01, said:

And I still disagree with relknes' bid of 3NT in that spot. Apparently he does too as he has stealth-edited the post.

I didn't edit the post. 3N is still listed as a possible alternative. Having said that, I do agree with you that it is a bad option and a mistake to have included it as a varriation. 3♠ is a better alternative than 3N. I still stand by the 4♣ as the best descrition, however, as in the primary auction.

[straube]

Zelandakh, on 2013-January-26, 10:01, said:

The context was this auction:


Note that I also mentioned the possibility of bidding 3♠ in a similar spot and rejected it for the same reasons, so it is not like I am disagreeing with Justin here, only with the "bad minor" decription.

And I still disagree with relknes' bid of 3NT in that spot. Apparently he does too as he has stealth-edited the post.

I might be missing it but I don't see anyone describing the suit as a bad suit or "bad minor".

I'm glad to see you considered a 3S rebid in your auction and agree with why you rejected it. Glad because it means my bidding judgment may be off but not insane.

[nige1]

Free, on 2013-January-26, 02:21, said:

How can you punt if you don't even know that North has a 7 card suit? When he only has 6♣, grand is really poor because you can only count 11-12 tricks.

Replies of 1♥, 1♠ and 2♣ can include a six card suit. Hence jump transfers are an attempt to set trumps with good long (usually seven card) suit and no side suit worth mentioning but, of course, Free is right that 7♣ could depend on the ♠ finesse or worse.

[Zelandakh]

straube, on 2013-January-26, 11:14, said:

I might be missing it but I don't see anyone describing the suit as a bad suit or "bad minor".

Have a look at the auction I quoted again; but this time read the notes, in particular line 2. I admit this could be parsed as "[0-8 (any)] or [9-11 with a bad minor]" rather than "[0-8 or 9-11] [with a bad minor]" but this seems unworkable.

[Zelandakh]

nige1, on 2013-January-26, 11:22, said:

Replies of 1♥, 1♠ and 2♣ can include a six card suit. Hence jump transfers are an attempt to set trumps with good long (usually seven card) suit and no side suit worth mentioning but, of course, Free is right that 7♣ could depend on the ♠ finesse or worse.

Once you have shown 7 clubs and heart shortage plus the relevant controls, 7♣ is heavily odds on. You should probably write in the description for the one-suiters that it is a 7+ card suit as this is quite important, not only for you but also for the opponents.

[straube]

Zelandakh, on 2013-January-26, 11:25, said:

Have a look at the auction I quoted again; but this time read the notes, in particular line 2. I admit this could be parsed as "[0-8 (any)] or [9-11 with a bad minor]" rather than "[0-8 or 9-11] [with a bad minor]" but this seems unworkable.

Oh I see what you mean. Actually I'm a bit confused with the Polish Club auction. If 1C-1D, 2S is strong but not forcing...how can 3C be 0-8 any or 9-11 with a bad minor? Does 3C promise clubs at all? Is it forcing? Seems like it must force if it can have 9-11 and possibly not clubs. Antonylee, can you explain this for us and what alternate choices North had? Obviously North wants to force game opposite a strong hand. I know you said something to the effect that it was an awkward auction for you.

[straube]

nige1, on 2013-January-26, 11:22, said:

Replies of 1♥, 1♠ and 2♣ can include a six card suit. Hence jump transfers are an attempt to set trumps with good long (usually seven card) suit and no side suit worth mentioning but, of course, Free is right that 7♣ could depend on the ♠ finesse or worse.

If it's usually 7-cds and you have the spade finesse to fall back on then I understand 7C. I think I'll put a 6C? by your 7C outcome (unless I hear objections) because a lot of folks were certain of that 7th club. I'm listing SCREAM's outcome as 6C even though I have the spade finesse and a possibility of a 7th club.