[eagles123]

♠QJx
♥AKxxx
♦x
♣AQJx


Bidding goes 1H --> 1S, opps are passing...

so what's the bid?

all obvious options seem to have issues

1 - 3♣ - what if partner has Axxx x Qxxxx xxx ok slightly extreme I know but game looks really dodgy so I don't really want to make a game force bid

2 - 2♣ - kinda the opposite problem my hand is too good! If p has say Kxxxx QJx Kxx xx I want to be in game but he'd probably just sign off in 2!h unless i'm missing something

3 - 1/2NT (depending on system) - no diamonds stop

4 - at whatever level♠ - 2 would be very negative, 3 would promise 4?


So I'm really struggling with what I should bid with this kind of hand do I just blast out a reverse and hope my P is better than minimum or is there some other clever bid I can do? Secondly, is there a method to find it my P has 5 spades as obviously that might be where we want to play.

Cheers,

Eagles123

[helene_t]

2♣ is fine, if p bids 2♥ then you have a chance to bid again.

The problem is not that he might sign off in 2♥. The problem is that he might pass. But he doesn't pass very often. Only with a very bad hand and probably a singleton hearts. Sure, we could be playing 2♣ when 4♠ is cold.

I think 3♣ would be OK too. I am a bit of a Walrus and rarely make jump shifts with 17 points and a non-extreme distribution, but this hand is on the border.

[eagles123]

helene_t, on 2013-February-28, 04:37, said:

2♣ is fine, if p bids 2♥ then you have a chance to bid again.

The problem is not that he might sign off in 2♥. The problem is that he might pass. But he doesn't pass very often. Only with a very bad hand and probably a singleton hearts. Sure, we could be playing 2♣ when 4♠ is cold.

I think 3♣ would be OK too. I am a bit of a Walrus and rarely make jump shifts with 17 points and a non-extreme distribution, but this hand is on the border.

yes it's the pass the worries me lol

Axxx
xx
xx
Kxxxxx

give him this, ouch at pass!

[helene_t]

Yes but that hand is quite close to raising 2♣ to 3♣, he can't be much stronger than this. And since opps didn't bid diamonds, some of his points will probably be wasted in that suit.

[phoenix214]

2♣ is a bit too weak if your playing not using Gazzili
Since you have a 17 count, you should definitely should bid past 2♠
2NT, isn`t good, it is 18-19 balanced
3♣ seems like a good bid, but i don`t like it, you show 5♥-4♣, and and a strong hand. What should partner do now? 3♦ would be his second suit, you bid 3♠
and he bids 3NT, if you don`t have much in diamonds like a double stopper it may go down while 4♠ can make.
My bid would be 4♠, playing on 4-3 isn`t that bad, you have good support despite having three cards, and you have a singl in diamonds, it would be bad only if partners hand is something like
xxxx
xx
AKxxx
xx
Then you would regret bidding 3♠, but in other cases the bid is winner for me.
Although my opinion may not be the best i hope you get my thought. If part doesn`t rebid with bad hands, maybe even bid 4♠ straight away, now opps won`t know what is happening, and your just praying partner isn`t loaded with diamond points

[P_Marlowe]

2C.

There is no perfect solution for this problem.
In general openers minimal rebid does NOT deny the strength for a reverse, it just denies the strength
to make a gameforcing response.

You came up with a perfect minima, that allowes making 5m, you are worried about missing game, fair
enough, but are you similar worried of going down, after forcing to 3NT+ without any assurance of a fit?

If you dont like 2C, you could try raising spades, 3S, you may end up in a 43 fit, but your strength and
shape will make sure, that you will have some play.

In this regard, a hand with a diamonds / spades reveres is harder to bid, similar 5422 hands with a 5 card
major.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Cyberyeti]

2♣ - no second choice, partner rarely passes and has a misfit if he does. He should raise to 3♣ with any reasonable hand with clubs (your example Axxx, xx, xx, Kxxxx is an easy raise).

If partner bids 2♥ you bid 2♠ showing almost exactly this hand.

[Codo]

Yes Yeti... in all points.
You cannot pass 2 Club with your example hand. Make it Axxx,x,Kxxxx,xxx and he may pass, but then you may be glad that he did.

[eagles123]

Ok thanks guys for the answers, the conclusions I draw are:

- 2♣ is the best bid given the situation although 3♣ is close.
- P should be aware that we might have this type of hand and should only pass with a real minimum.
- Although the bid isn't a reverse it doesn't necessarily show 15 or less points as, say, 1C - 1D - 1H would (as 2H rebid not Game Forcing)
-

[Cyberyeti]

eagles123, on 2013-February-28, 10:13, said:

Ok thanks guys for the answers, the conclusions I draw are:

- 2♣ is the best bid given the situation although 3♣ is close.
- P should be aware that we might have this type of hand and should only pass with a real minimum.
- Although the bid isn't a reverse it doesn't necessarily show 15 or less points as, say, 1C - 1D - 1H would (as 2H rebid not Game Forcing)
-

Not quite, to me 3♣ is not close (in fact because we found we were almost never bidding 3♣ on this sort of thing we use it for a different hand type now)

He should only pass it with a real minimum unless completely without a fit, an ace and a king is a bit better than minimum, but 4153 I'd pass like a shot.

1♣-1♦-1♥ doesn't necessarily show 15 or less unless you agree it does, we would do this on 18 routinely or even more and play 1♥ very nearly forcing although this is unusual.

I tend to find beginners jump around way too much on good hands and not enough on indifferent distributional ones.

[eagles123]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-February-28, 10:48, said:

Not quite, to me 3♣ is not close (in fact because we found we were almost never bidding 3♣ on this sort of thing we use it for a different hand type now)

He should only pass it with a real minimum unless completely without a fit, an ace and a king is a bit better than minimum, but 4153 I'd pass like a shot.

1♣-1♦-1♥ doesn't necessarily show 15 or less unless you agree it does, we would do this on 18 routinely or even more and play 1♥ very nearly forcing although this is unusual.

I tend to find beginners jump around way too much on good hands and not enough on indifferent distributional ones.

Yes I probably do have very inexperienced/basic judgement on reversing...

for me 1x - 1y - 1Z = 12-15
1x - 1Y - 2Z = 16 + or a good 15

But i appreciate there are probably much better methods.

[neilkaz]

Sometime like 1♦-1♥-2♠ is a jump shift and in standard (non forcing ♣) systems supposed to be GF. Also, 1♥-1♠-3♣ is a jump shift rather than a reverse and also GF.

[Zelandakh]

eagles123, on 2013-February-28, 12:14, said:

for me 1x - 1y - 1Z = 12-15
1x - 1Y - 2Z = 16 + or a good 15

I played something similar to this as a junior because my partner insisted on rebids not being wide range and the alternative he suggested was much worse. It is ok most of the time, although I was not fond of it even then. And yes, there are much better methods available.

[mitsguy]

My understanding is that each available rebid by opener, in this auction, would have the following meaning in SAYC (please correct me if I'm wrong):

1NT: 13-14 points, balanced hand, denies 4 spades

2♣: 13-18 points, 4 clubs, denies 4 spades, unbalanced hand
2♦: 13-18 points, 4 diamonds, denies 4 spades or 4 clubs, unbalanced hand
2♥: 13-15 points, 6 hearts, denies 4 of any other suit, unbalanced hand
2♠: 13-15 points, 4 card spade support
2NT: 18-19 points, balanced hand, denies 4 spades

3♣: 19-21 points, 4 clubs, denies 4 spades, unbalanced hand
3♦: 19-21 points, 4 diamonds, denies 4 spades or 4 clubs, unbalanced hand
3♥: 16-18 points, 6 hearts, denies 4 of any other suit, unbalanced hand
3♠: 16-18 points, 4 card spade support
3NT: it would be a signoff in NT. I have no idea why you would use it at this point in the auction, so I assume you wouldn't use it

4♣: no official meaning in SAYC. Can be used as a splinter bid, showing 19-21 points, 4 card spade support, and a void or singleton in clubs
4♦: no official meaning in SAYC. Can be used as a splinter bid, showing 19-21 points, 4 card spade support, and a void or singleton in diamonds
4♥: 19-21 points, 6 hearts, denies 4 of any other suit, unbalanced hand. I don't really understand this bid, since your partner could be void in hearts, and then you'd be in trouble
4♠: 19-21 points, 4 card spade support
4NT: Blackwood, with (I think) spades as trump

5♣, 5♦: undefined. In another thread, someone said they are used as "Voidwood" to bid blackwood with a void in that suit
5♥, 5♠: undefined, and I see no reason to use them
5NT: Garnd slam force with (I think) spades as agreed trump

In any case, the appropriate bid here would be 2♣. Responder could pass with 6-9 points and a preference for clubs rather than spades. But since responder will know that you could have as many as 18 points, he/she will probably try to continue bidding, unless he/she has real garbage. With 18 points, maybe you could stretch and make a jump shift to 3♣, since you probably have game unless responder has real garbage, but that could get you in trouble if responder thinks you have a much stronger hand. It could depend on what your spot cards are.

[Stephen Tu]

mitsguy, on 2013-March-01, 22:16, said:

My understanding is that each available rebid by opener, in this auction, would have the following meaning in SAYC (please correct me if I'm wrong):

Most of this is correct, except:
1. When you say "points" below, it includes upgrade points for good distribution, it's not HCP only.
2. Standards for opening bids have crept lower over time; the de facto lower limit is more like 12 instead of 13 on the min rebids. I know that the official SAYC doc says 13, but that feels like an error cribbed from another source using an older 16-18 nt. It doesn't make sense for nt rebid to be 13-15 when playing 15-17 nt, everyone pretty much assumes 12-14.

> 2♥: 13-15 points, 6 hearts, denies 4 of any other suit, unbalanced hand
With good hearts spots, playable opposite a stiff, one may prefer to rebid them instead of a side 4cd minor, especially at matchpoints.

> 2♠: 13-15 points, 4 card spade support
"3-4" cd support. Std expert practice is to raise with 3514/3541 minimum hands. Rebidding the minor then raising spades later is reserved for strong hands like the one being discussed in this thread. One prefers to have 4 cd support, but this is considered least of evils, and it will often work out fine even in the 4-3 fit.

>3♣: 19-21 points, 4 clubs, denies 4 spades, unbalanced hand
>3♦: 19-21 points, 4 diamonds, denies 4 spades or 4 clubs, unbalanced hand

With very strong hands with 6+cd heart suits, it is sometimes necessary to "manufacture" a jump shift on a 3 card fragment to insure that partner doesn't pass you, intending to usually rebid hearts, although sometimes raising spades or passing 3nt depending on how the auction continues and what your hand looks like.

Also, I don't think 3♦ would absolutely deny 4 cd clubs, in theory opener could have a huge 0544 hand.

>3NT: it would be a signoff in NT. I have no idea why you would use it at this point in the auction, so I assume you wouldn't use it
A 3nt rebid by opener in this context would be a long running heart suit with minor suit stoppers, counting on partner to stop spades. Partner is allowed to pull to 4♥ if he believes that will do better. In general 1x-1y-3nt shows this hand type, no interest in playing partners major, since 18-19 bids 2nt, the 3nt is unneeded and can be used for semi-gambling purposes. Opening hearts, sometimes 9 tricks are there in NT but not ten for hearts. Opening a minor, 3nt is game but 4m isn't. Other rebids would generally require you to get 9 tricks anyway, so the thought is to try for them in NT and get the game bonus.

>4♥: 19-21 points, 6 hearts, denies 4 of any other suit, unbalanced hand. I don't really understand this bid, since your partner could be void in hearts, and then you'd be in trouble

With a strong hand you manufacture a jump shift as described above. A 4M rebid is usually a gamble based on a 7 or 8 cd suit, that thinks it's an OK gamble even if partner is stiff or void. It's a hand "I almost opened 4H to begin with, but was slightly too strong, afraid of missing slam if you had come up with a strongish raise or 2/1 response". So lots of hearts, not so many points, stronger than a 4H opener.

Also, if one is suitably strong in the suit having only 6, sometimes you don't particularly care if partner is void. If you opened on AKQJxx hearts, you might end up forcing to game in hearts and find partner void, but you rate to get in and draw the opp's trumps on the normal 4-3 split anyway. Even if they split 5-2 you only have 1 trump loser and might be OK having enough tricks outside.

>In any case, the appropriate bid here would be 2♣. Responder could pass with 6-9 points and a preference for clubs rather than spades. But since responder will know that you could have as many as 18 points, he/she will probably try to continue bidding, unless he/she has real garbage.

Preference for clubs over both spades and hearts. Holding 8-9, because of the possibility of this sort of hand, responder with 2 cd hearts and even as many as 4 clubs is expected to take a "false preference" to two hearts, on say a 5224 type hand. Although this will sometimes result in an inferior 5-2 heart fit, it avoids missing game when opener has this strong raise, and reasonably often if playing 2H opener can scramble home a make on the 5-2 fit for a push even if clubs makes an extra trick. There are days though when you play a 7 cd heart fit going down and you lost a 9 cd club fit; no system is perfect and this hand is one where SA's ambiguities will sometimes let you down.

[mitsguy]

Thanks, your response was very helpful. One thing I wonder about is, if you "manufacture" a jump-shift to a 3 card suit, in order to avoid jumping all the way to 4 of a major with a strong hand and a 6 card suit, is there a danger that responder could jump all the way to game with only 4 card support, and bypassing 3NT and possibly 4 of your 6 card major?

I am well aware that "points" does not mean HCP only. My understanding is:

1. When bidding NT, count HCP only.
2. When bidding a suit, count distribution points: 1 point for a 5 card suit, 2 points for a 6 card suit, etc.
3. When raising a major suit, count dummy points for shortness: 5 points for a void, 3 points for a singleton, 1 point for a doubleton. Do not count dummy points if the short suit is the major that your partner bid.
4. Aces are really worth slightly more than 4 points; Kings are really worth slightly more than 3 points. Queens are really worth slightly less than 2 points; Jacks are really worth slightly less than 1 point. Tens are really worth slightly more than 0 points. So, you can upgrade a hand with a lot of Aces, Kings, and Tens, and downgrade a hand with a lot of Queens and Jacks.

About opening bids: my understanding is that in 1st or 2nd seat, you should use the Rule of 20: if your HCP plus total number of cards in 2 longest suits is 20 or greater, then open; if it's less than 20, then Pass. In 4th seat, I know the Rule of 15 says if your HCP plus number of spades is 15 or greater, then open; if it's less than 15, then Pass. I don't think there is any official "rule" for 3rd seat.

The other type of bid that the auction in this thread did not cover is a reverse: a 2 level non-jump bid of a suit higher ranking than opener's first suit: I beleive that this shows 16-21 points and 4 cards in the suit. Since your partner is unlikely to have support for that suit (or he/she wouldn't have bypassed it), it is used more to show strength than to suggest that suit as trump.

It would be interesting if someone would post a complete guide to SAYC. These posts have many details that are not in the official SAYC booklet. I don't think that this is all officially compiled anywhere.

[Stephen Tu]

mitsguy, on 2013-March-03, 14:49, said:

One thing I wonder about is, if you "manufacture" a jump-shift to a 3 card suit, in order to avoid jumping all the way to 4 of a major with a strong hand and a 6 card suit, is there a danger that responder could jump all the way to game with only 4 card support, and bypassing 3NT and possibly 4 of your 6 card major?

Responder is supposed to be aware of such hand types and avoid raising to 5m. You are in a GF so he can raise to 4m without fear of this getting passed out.

> 1. When bidding NT, count HCP only.

Long suits are still worth something in NT, they take tricks after the suit is established, I'd still count length points. Mediocre 5 cd suit probably not worth full point by itself, but you might count it as a half point upgrade or something like that. Having multiple tens and 9s are worth something, Consider these upgrades in borderline situations, vs. downgrades like having honors packed in short suits/doubletons which is worse than having them in long suits.

>2. When bidding a suit, count distribution points: 1 point for a 5 card suit, 2 points for a 6 card suit, etc.
>3. When raising a major suit, count dummy points for shortness: 5 points for a void, 3 points for a singleton, 1 point for a doubleton. Do not count dummy points if the short suit is the major that your partner bid.

Counting 5/3/1 is a little much if you are also counting long suit points. There are different schemes for distributional adjustments. 5/3/1 is more for when counting shortness only and not counting long suit points, I think this one was the old Goren adjustment. 3/2/1 for shortness is usually what is recommended when you are also counting for long suits. But you can count a bit more for singletons/voids if you have a large trump fit (9/10 cds), 5/3/1 is probably about right with a ten card fit. With more trumps you can often maneuver to ruff more cards and are more immune to trump leads.

>About opening bids: my understanding is that in 1st or 2nd seat, you should use the Rule of 20: if your HCP plus total number of cards in 2 longest suits is 20 or greater, then open; if it's less than 20, then Pass. In 4th seat, I know the Rule of 15 says if your HCP plus number of spades is 15 or greater, then open; if it's less than 15, then Pass. I don't think there is any official "rule" for 3rd seat.

Rule of 20 depends on how aggressive you want to be. It's on the aggressive side so on borderline cases you will want to bid if your honors are in your long suits, but pass with dubious honors in short suits. Some also like to have some min defensive requirements, like rule of 20 + 2 "quick tricks". A = 1 QT, K = .5 QT, AK = 2 Qt, aq = 1.5 qt, kq = 1 qt.

The 4th seat rule aka "Pearson points" of 15 only applies to borderline openers you would not have opened in 1st/2nd chair that you are considering a opening light in 4th chair. Sometimes you have something like - AKxxx xxx AJxxx 4th chair and it's 100% clear open even though you have 12 Pearson only. Pearson is only meant to dissuade you from opening more borderline stuff like x AJxxx Qxx Kxxx.

Quote

The other type of bid that the auction in this thread did not cover is a reverse: a 2 level non-jump bid of a suit higher ranking than opener's first suit: I beleive that this shows 16-21 points and 4 cards in the suit. Since your partner is unlikely to have support for that suit (or he/she wouldn't have bypassed it), it is used more to show strength than to suggest that suit as trump.

I wouldn't say it doesn't suggest that suit as trump. Partner is going to bypass that suit if his higher ranking suit is longer, or if 5/5. Also tactically people like to bypass 1d to bid a major fairly frequently, to avoid burying a major fit if the opps compete. Perhaps one doesn't play in opener's second suit very often but it is a possibility. It is a bid showing both strength and shape. Also reverses are also like jump-shifts in that they are occasionally manufactured in 3 cd fragments as "the least lie" to keep the auction going.

Quote

It would be interesting if someone would post a complete guide to SAYC. These posts have many details that are not in the official SAYC booklet. I don't think that this is all officially compiled anywhere.

I think that's asking a bit much to ask for online posting. There are are lots of bridge books out there, look at the catalog at www.baronbarclay.com . A complete guide to SAYC basically becomes a full length book, there are several available there. And SAYC is a massively flawed system anyway, serious students really should be aiming towards learning "SA" concepts more generically and moving to "2/1 game force" fairly quickly.

Bridge is a pretty deep game, to really master all the subtleties one needs to digest perhaps dozens of books, and/or have really good mentors. You can tease out answers to specific questions by posting in these forums, but for more comprehensive overviews of a range of topics you should explore the baronbarclay catalog. Post questions about what area you wish more info on, and people will give you author & title recommendations.

[Free]

eagles123, on 2013-February-28, 04:41, said:

yes it's the pass the worries me lol

Axxx
xx
xx
Kxxxxx

give him this, ouch at pass!

Partner can't hold this hand. If he has a 4-2-2-5 he'll pass (hope for a bad trump break), if he has a 4-(21)-6 he has an obvious raise (after which we can play 4♠ or 5♣), but with 14 cards he can't make a good decision.

Imo the best thing to do is to just bid 2♣. In many cases responder will correct to 2♥ after which we can pattern out. Partner can also rebid 2♠ which we would love to hear. On the rare occasion that partner passes, just be glad you didn't bid 3♣. Btw, bidding 3♣ forces us to game, and as you've already shown, it's easy to construct hands that result in a disaster.