[gnasher]

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Partner's double is very slow. The double is takeout.

There is a poll here:
http://www.bridgebas...ice-of-strains/
suggesting that pass, 4♠, 4NT and possibly 5♦ are LAs.

Which of these actions are allowed?

[billw55]

I suppose the slow double most likely means he was considering passing out 4♥. I don't see how this demonstrably suggests any of the LAs. Maybe it could be argued that it tends to suggest fewer values, which reduces the appeal of pass.

[broze]

When there are several things partner's hesitation might suggest, can't we do whatever we want?

I'm guessing the reason for the topic is that partner had 6 spades and so the opps claimed that the slow pass suggested bidding 4♠? Not for me. P could just have a close decision whether to double or not.

[gnasher]

broze, on 2013-May-13, 07:42, said:

I'm guessing the reason for the topic is that partner had 6 spades and so the opps claimed that the slow pass suggested bidding 4♠?

I'm not sure why you should suppose that, but anyway your guess is incorrect. Nobody asked for a ruling, and the reason for the topic is that I think it an interesting question.

[paulg]

My expectation is that a very slow double shows values but shape unsuitable for a takeout double. Generally if passing out were an option he'd normally take it after thinking for a lot time because of the difficulties caused by the break in tempo and then doubling. So perhaps something like 5224 or 6(21)4, which some may say means that 5♦ is the LA least suggested by the BIT.

[aguahombre]

It suggests she doesn't have what she had the last time this came up. So, if my choice didn't work out well last time, it suggests I do that same thing again; therefore, I won't.

If my choice did work out well last time, I will do it again because the BIT suggests something else might be more successful.

Edit: See Wank, below, for the answer if we won't have special partnership experience with this situation.

[wank]

a slow double suggests that partner's double wasn't obvious, but as we have no idea why it wasn't obvious we shouldn't feel constrained at all. is he lacking shape? values? considering 4s?

[billw55]

Only six replies and already three theories as to why partner hesitated. So I think it is safe to say that nothing in particular is suggested. In any case, one thing I definitely will not do at the table is start thinking over why partner hesitated - rather, I will try to put that out of my mind entirely.

[campboy]

paulg, on 2013-May-13, 08:15, said:

My expectation is that a very slow double shows values but shape unsuitable for a takeout double. Generally if passing out were an option he'd normally take it after thinking for a lot time because of the difficulties caused by the break in tempo and then doubling. So perhaps something like 5224 or 6(21)4, which some may say means that 5♦ is the LA least suggested by the BIT.

I agree that these sorts of shapes are more likely with a slow double, and I agree that 4♠ is suggested over anything else for this reason (6 spades more likely), but since 6133 is also a plausible shape for a slow double, and if that's partner's shape we definitely prefer 5♦ to 4NT, I don't think either 4NT or 5♦ is demonstrably suggested over the other.

[Sjoerds]

I understand that because "Pass" wasn't a LA in your poll, we have to consider the other options.

If there is any clue due to the hesitation it looks like partner considered "Pass". The poll confirms this point.
If you use this UI you would be very careful and don't want to be to optimistic.
4♠ is the most pessimistic bid I guess
4NT shows perhaps some interest in a minor slam.
5♦ is pessimistic again.
But all bids are so close for me that I would not consider to exclude one of them.

[ggwhiz]

paulg, on 2013-May-13, 08:15, said:

My expectation is that a very slow double shows values but shape unsuitable for a takeout double. Generally if passing out were an option he'd normally take it after thinking for a lot time because of the difficulties caused by the break in tempo and then doubling. So perhaps something like 5224 or 6(21)4, which some may say means that 5♦ is the LA least suggested by the BIT.

It's a takeout double with unknown warts and I agree that 5♦ is the most committal. Might be on a 5-2 but might be right anyway.

I wouldn't call for a ruling on the other choices either but feel that a shape flaw is a bit more likely and that would be shorter diamonds most often so I don't like pass.

[barmar]

broze, on 2013-May-13, 07:42, said:

When there are several things partner's hesitation might suggest, can't we do whatever we want?

Not necessarily. If the LAs are A, B, C, and D, and the hesitation suggests A, B, or D could be the most successful, then I think you have to choose C.

This is the basis of something I said in another recent thread., where there were several LAs that included Pass. The hesitation suggested offensive values, so I said that it suggested "action" over passing, which means you have to pass because of the UI. It doesn't matter that it doesn't strongly suggest any specific one of the action LAs.

[PhilKing]

Based on the poll, I would just disallow Pass, but could be persuaded to disallow 4NT.

[campboy]

It may be that a hesitation has several plausible interpretations, some of which make a particular action sound good and some of which make it sound bad. If so, that action isn't demonstrably suggested. But if there are some interpretations which make a particular action sound good and none which make it sound bad, then it is demonstrably suggested IMO.

[lamford]

wank, on 2013-May-13, 08:26, said:

a slow double suggests that partner's double wasn't obvious, but as we have no idea why it wasn't obvious we shouldn't feel constrained at all. is he lacking shape? values? considering 4s?

Especially as we are not allowed to select calls that could be demonstrably suggested, and it is not clear here that anything is suggested.

[lamford]

PhilKing, on 2013-May-13, 10:22, said:

Based on the poll, I would just disallow Pass, but could be persuaded to disallow 4NT.

That's not right. The pollees weren't asked there what was demonstrably suggested. All the poll told you was what the LAs are. You have to decide separately what could be demonstrably suggested, which is this thread.

[PhilKing]

lamford, on 2013-May-13, 13:36, said:

That's not right. The pollees weren't asked there what was demonstrably suggested. All the poll told you was what the LAs are. You have to decide separately what could be demonstrably suggested, which is this thread.

Although several people suggested passing was not absurd, no one actually passed. It registered a grand total of 0% of the votes. So I disallow pass immediately.

I have rethought stage 2 of your process, and would disallow 4♠ and allow 4NT. Pass would have failed this stage anyway. Basically, pass and 4♠ both cater for non-pure doubles in different ways.

Damn - someone has just passed, but they said they were taking the sure plus, so it doesn't count.

[gnasher]

PhilKing, on 2013-May-13, 16:26, said:

Although several people suggested passing was not absurd, no one actually passed. It registered a grand total of 0% of the votes. So I disallow pass immediately.

Why? You're allowed to choose an offbeat action, as long as it wasn't demonstrably suggested over other actions. For example, it would be legal to bid 6♣, because plainly that isn't suggested by the pause.

[nige1]

gnasher writes "Partner's double is very slow. The double is takeout. There is a poll here: http://www.bridgebas...ice-of-strains/ suggesting that pass, 4♠, 4NT and possibly 5♦ are LAs. Which of these actions are allowed?"


IMO: Partners tank suggests that his double may be marginal or off-shape. For example, less likely to be 60(43) or 6133 or 5044 or 51(43); and more likely to be 61(24) or 5233 or 52(24). Pass, 4♠ and perhaps 4N cater best for this supposition. So the least suggested LA seems to be 5♦.

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[iviehoff]

gnasher, on 2013-May-13, 16:48, said:

Why? You're allowed to choose an offbeat action, as long as it wasn't demonstrably suggested over other actions.

I think the true restriction is something like "you are allowed to choose an off-beat action so long as it doesn't have appear to have any advantage over a normal ethical action, given the situation you are in." Nearly always that will be the same thing as "you are allowed to choose an offbeat action as long as it is unsuccessful".

The canonical case is 1H - pass - 3H (BiT) - pass - ? where the clearly ethical action is pass. If 6H looks to have scoring advantages over pass, then that will be disallowed. In practice, that is very close to saying it will be disallowed if you make it.