[plum_tree]

(Deleted)

[mycroft]

"fourth suit forcing": not in NT, but 1♦-1♠; 2♣-2♥ - what does it show? is it FG or only one round? If only one round, what's forcing after that? What are the responses? that sort of thing.

The only problem with Landy is that it's so natural players forget that 2♣ isn't and bid it with clubs. Anderson in his (old) lebensohl book suggests you defend against Landy by assuming it's natural, just because it *is* so often.

I like natural, frankly; as long as you agree with partner about your objectives (are you trying to get in the way? potentially lead-directing? Looking for a sacrifice?). Landy is at least one step better, because "both majors" is the hand-type you most want to compete for partscores with, *and* overcalling in clubs naturally (especially just 2♣) doesn't make life much harder for the opponents. Also, most people will play systems on over an artificial 2♣ (which isn't a bad idea), but what's "systems on" for a double? Stayman. But you only give them that option when the 4-4 fit they find is guaranteed not to break well!

[neilkaz]

A good way to remember Landy is to remember that 2C is Stayman when WE open 1NT (which, of course you'll not forget) so 2C is also artificial when THEY open 1NT.

As a novice, you'll forget some conventions sometimes when you don't bid them and sometimes when PD does. It happened to me it happened to all of us, and it still happens to some of us (especially my PD who forget two way Drury thrice yesterday even though he insists that we play it !!).

[EricK]

It may be easier on the memory to play X as both majors and all 2 level bids as natural. i.e the double is take out, with emphasis on any unbid majors, just as in many other sequences; and 2♣ shows ♣ just as in most other sequences.

[Winstonm]

Double=penalty=good suit to lead
+ better minor to show both majors

[uday]

I'm completely with Helene_t and Zelandakh

Novices are probably best served playing natural overcalls, where you can explain to them that an overcall should contain playing strength, as if they were making a normal overcall at the two level, mentioning along the way that overcalling on weakish 5 card suits isn't a good idea.
In addition, they should probably play that a double shows at least a decent strong NT if the opponents are playing strong NT, and a least a strong NT if the opponents are playing anything weaker.

Over time, the novice will begin to get a little twitchy about staying out of auctions when he has weak hands with some shape, and this is the point at which to introduce defences. But as has been mentioned - at this point they're no longer likely to be novices.

Even superficially simple conventions like Landy come with a lot of auctions that need to be discussed, and the gain isn't worth the strain to a novice.

[blackshoe]

There's an article in the July 2013 The Bridge World on a defense to 1NT which features natural suit bids at the two level. 2NT and bids at the three level show specific (in most cases) two suiters, iirc.

[akwoo]

One icky consideration:

In the ACBL, Crowhurst / Multi-Landy is illegal under GCC (To be specific, the 2♦ bid is illegal; the remaining bids are fine, but you need the 2♦ bid to make the system work). Some districts do run tournaments that are GCC + any NT defense or GCC + specifically Multi-Landy.

[mikeh]

 plum_tree, on 2013-June-20, 08:42, said:

See my question to CamHenry. Why has so much energy been wasted on other methods if Landy is so good?

The reality is that Landy is not, in fact, very good.

What follows is way beyond novice level, and I'd definitely suggest either natural or landy for a novice, but you asked about why so much effort has been devoted to exploring other methods.

The underlying reason is based at least in part on the notion that your opps, if of comparable skill level to you, are likely going to enjoy the results of an uncontested auction that starts with one of them bidding a strong 1N.

We all learn, early on, reasonable methods for bidding in response to our partner's 1N, and as one gains experience, this usually becomes one of the most solid part of one's methods. I'd actually suggest that for most players, their auctions beginning with a strong NT (for those that play the method) are THE BEST DEFINED and most successful of any part of their system.

As an aside, this doesn't translate at all into 2N opening bids: for the vast majority of players, these auctions are amongst the weakest part of their methods, for reasons waaaay beyond the scope of this post.

Thus we start with the proposition that, if left to themselves, the opps will likely do well once they open 1N.

This means that we have a strong incentive to try to interfere, but obviously we can't just bid everytime...they'll keep doubling us far too often. We need to combine aggression and risk taking with some level of sanity.

Shape and fit are of far more importance than hcp when deciding to compete...as Fluffy suggested in his post.

Sometimes we sort of have our own fit....we hold a 6 or 7 card suit....while I am not completely adopting Fluffy's view, and he acknowledged that he was simplifying, I do agree that we should strive to get into the auction if rho opens 1N and we hold a (decent) 6 card suit.

Other times we have shape but no really long suit: we hold 2 suits. The odds are fairly good that when we hold 2 suits, partner will have a reasonable fit for one of them. Obviously, that won't hold true anywhere near all the time, but it is a reasonable hope to hold.

So we would like to get into auctions on one-suiters and on 2-suiters.

Landy allows us to show only one of the 6 possible 2 suited hands (3 with spades, 2 hearts and a minor, and 1 just minors), altho we can double that to 2 ways by using 2N as both minors.

Most of the other methods that have enjoyed some success are designed to allow entry into the auction on a wider range of hands.

In addition, landy and natural are relatively easy to cope with: they don't mess much with the opps, especially as they gain experience.

Methods that create ambiguity have proven to be quite effective: hence 2♣ majors, 2♦ single suit major, 2M the major and a minor is one example.

But I would strongly recommend putting off learning these gadgets, which have a high memory demand and horrible consequences for 'forgets' until much later in your bridge career.

Finally: kudos for a good initial question and cogent follow-ups....have fun with the game.

[Vampyr]

 MickyB, on 2013-June-20, 09:25, said:

Landy is there to be abused. Getting in on most hands with 5-4 majors is just such a big gain. It wouldn't occur to me that it might "usually be 5-5", even vulnerable.

It wouldn't occur to me either.

One thing to keep in mind is that overcalls of any kind should have decent values if the opponents have opened a Weak NT.

[gwnn]

It's true but also recall the old saying "All is fair in love and war and NV@matchpoints."

[shnk]

 nige1, on 2013-June-20, 10:28, said:

Landy is simple and effective although the natural 2♦ overcall is of doubtful effectiveness.

Even a 2♦ overcall will confuse your average non-lebensohl playing pair. Even if they have have talked about it, at the very least it may wrongside the contract for them. If its just a pickup pair on BBO, they can easily misbid (what is double? what is 2 of a major?) A natural 2♣ on the other hand has almost no preemptive value cuz most just double for stayman and keep their beloved transfers. Landy is great; take the one non useful bid and make it conventional. After experimenting with both Capp and DONT, my regular partnership has settled for Landy. Like you say, simple and effective.

[BillPatch]

 blackshoe, on 2013-June-21, 14:35, said:

There's an article in the July 2013 The Bridge World on a defense to 1NT which features natural suit bids at the two level. 2NT and bids at the three level show specific (in most cases) two suiters, iirc.

Kleinman's proposed "Supernatural" features one suiters (4) at the two level, a double to show the 3 two suiters with ♠, 2NT for minors, 3 of a min0r that suit plus hearts, 3 of a major strong one suiter, 4 of a minor weak.

[BillPatch]

advancer asks for 2nd suit by bidding 2♣, shows own suit at two level, raises spades preemptively, asks with 2NT, or makes a penalty pass for a ♠ lead.