[Phil]

Matchpoints, all vul

KJ9xxx, xx xxx Kx

(1♣) - 1♠ - (2♦) - 4♦
(4♥) - ?

[mikeh]

We're in a fp for me, since partner's splinter was gf. It may not be ideal, but it's one of my rules for fp analysis...we forced ourselves to 4♠ and that makes any pass below 4♠ forcing. I can't double, since I don't have defence if they sit and don't want to suggest I can defend 5♦, so 4♠ seems foisted on me. I would have preferred a 2♠ overcall, after which I could leave doubling to partner since he won't play me for any defence at all.

I suspect I may not enjoy the next round of bidding. It's not clear to me that rho is 0=5=2=6, but it seems definitely a possibility....I think it dangerous for him to bid a 4 card heart suit, tho there are some good reasons to do so, since his partner ought not to double 1♠ with 4=5 or 4=6 and a good hand (I know I have seen some posters advocate that but I think it poor practice). Fortunately, partner can see the bidding as well, and he won't double without defence, and my club K ought to be a card. If he passes LHO's bid (assuming he makes one) I am taking the rare 5 over 5 dive.

[Phil]

As far as our FP rules are concerned, in a lower level auction, pass would be the weakest action, and a bid would be forward going. This isn't forum - standard, but its still pretty common for a lot of old timers around here.

I would also agree we are logically in a force to 4♠ (the 4♥ bid shouldn't change anything) but this is undiscussed with this partner.

[Hanoi5]

4♠.

[cherdano]

Why would I bid anything but 4♠, assuming normal FP rules?

[wyman]

If we're forced to 4S and pass is weakest, I pass.

I feel like if those are our meta-rules, then 4S should set up a force over 5-any.

[Fluffy]

if double is weaker than 4♥ it is tempting, but too risky. FWIW I would had bid 2♠

[nige1]

Phil, on 2013-June-24, 21:05, said:

Matchpoints, all vul ♠ K J 9 x x x ♥ x x ♦ x x x ♣ K x
(1♣) - 1♠ - (2♦) - 4♦
(4♥) - ?

4♠ = 10, Pass = 7, 5♣ = 4. Here (according to my partners) :
4♠ = No slam interest. Pass = Mild slam try. Others = Cues.

[han]

I think that mikeh has it right here. With the opponents bidding like this, slam should not often be in the picture. It is much more likely that the opponents bid at the 5-level, and we'll have a competitive decision. Therefore we should use our current bid to help us with the next decision.

I also agree that 4S is more offensive than pass. Should the opponents bid 5D and partner passes, then I would also bid 5S next.

[Zelandakh]

4♠ now. 2♠ the previous round.

[gszes]

wyman, on 2013-June-25, 09:09, said:

If we're forced to 4S and pass is weakest, I pass.

I feel like if those are our meta-rules, then 4S should set up a force over 5-any.

you missed the part where phil said in a lower level auction.

[gszes]

mikeh, on 2013-June-24, 21:18, said:

We're in a fp for me, since partner's splinter was gf. It may not be ideal, but it's one of my rules for fp analysis...we forced ourselves to 4♠ and that makes any pass below 4♠ forcing. I can't double, since I don't have defence if they sit and don't want to suggest I can defend 5♦, so 4♠ seems foisted on me. I would have preferred a 2♠ overcall, after which I could leave doubling to partner since he won't play me for any defence at all.

I suspect I may not enjoy the next round of bidding. It's not clear to me that rho is 0=5=2=6, but it seems definitely a possibility....I think it dangerous for him to bid a 4 card heart suit, tho there are some good reasons to do so, since his partner ought not to double 1♠ with 4=5 or 4=6 and a good hand (I know I have seen some posters advocate that but I think it poor practice). Fortunately, partner can see the bidding as well, and he won't double without defence, and my club K ought to be a card. If he passes LHO's bid (assuming he makes one) I am taking the rare 5 over 5 dive.

agree wholeheartedly now i dont have to write so much:)))))))

[wyman]

gszes, on 2013-June-28, 09:17, said:

you missed the part where phil said in a lower level auction.

Or you missed the part where I said "if."

Also, if I have agreements about pass v bid being weaker at the 2 level when we're forced but no agreements at the 4 level, I'm going to assume that the 2-level agreements are what we're using at the 4 level, and if necessary calibrate after the hand. When it's not your regular partner, you have to do what you can with the limited agreements you have. I mean, Jesus, it's good that they even have explicit agreements about this at lower levels if they aren't a reg partnership...

[Phil]

I bid 4♠. Under our general forcing pass rules, this should be a little better than a pass, and arguably should encourage bidding 5/5. Partner did take the push to 5♠ with AQxxx ATxxx x xx which failed by a trick. If spades were 2-0, this would have been a good result. He also thought I might have bid 2♠, which I think is pretty vile red.

All this sounds good on paper, but when we discussed the hand after the round, he didn't think my pass over 4♥ was even forcing (?!).

[PhilKing]

There is no difference whatsoever in the strength promised by 4♠ and pass here. Why? Because some of our weak hands are willing to stand for 4♥ doubled. Imagine ♠AQxxx♥xxx♦QTxx♣x and we can see the fatuous nature of playing pass as extras.

On the other hand, I do agree that 4♠ shows a minimum hand, albeit one with no desire to defend. The only thing that would set up an FP is a double of 4♥ from either side.