[mike777]

jdeegan, on 2013-July-11, 21:32, said:

OMG. Don't you know nuthin' about Indonesia. Shadow Play? "The Year of Living Dangerously". An island nation with hundreds of islands. Four different religions. A former Dutch colony for several hundred years. People there are not what one would characterize as straightforward and for good reason. You don't have to be a genius to know what is happening. You just have to not be stupid.

My guess is and only a guess is that the Hog will tell you he has been to Indonesia often, very very often.

More than all other (nonnative) posters combined in their lifetime.

He probably speaks the local dialect.

btw tiny nitpick there are probably hundreds of religions on these islands.
--


In any event hope to hear more from the WBF and the Indonesia bridge league.


btw2 did the Israel govt ban them from travel and what happens if the team says too bad we are going? Are we talking hard jail time here?

[paua]

jonottawa, on 2013-July-11, 19:34, said:

I didn't know who ggwhiz was. Now I do! Sorry you stepped in my Animal House trap. I didn't set it for you. Of course it's absurd to offer anyone a 'blank check' to ask for whatever they want and hold the organizers hostage unless they deliver.

The whole thing is an ugly mess. A bunch of bullies shouted everyone else down (I feel especially bad for Roy Welland, but anyone who was subjected (or saw what was going on and risked being subjected) to that hateful tripe and stood their ground gets a big thumbs up from me) and got their way. About the only silver lining is that the event wasn't moved.

I agree with hrothgar that it reminds me a lot of Shanghai:

I made a lot of posts because I saw a vulnerable group being bullied and I didn't like it.
Bobby Wolff was dead wrong then too.
The USBF pres made a very poorly worded statement (iirc.)

Can I add here that I think the boys on BridgeWinners have given you an unneccessarily rude response. When it started down the anti-semitic name-calling part of the thread I think there were double-standards by BridgeWinners. It seems that groundless accusations can be made of "uncivilised / Muslim" countries on BridgeWinners, but any suggestion that the Israelis were expecting special treatment ("special snowflakes") is abhorrent.
I think they should rename BridgeWinners.

[GreenMan]

ggwhiz, on 2013-July-11, 20:03, said:

The only blank check I'm suggesting goes to the owners of the "show". They bring the bucks, they spend the bucks and any/all requests special or otherwise and final determination of the venue should flow through the WBF. That decision making authority looks to have been abdicated for no good reason.

Large events without fixed locations rely heavily on local organizers to handle most arrangements. I suspect that the WBF doesn't have the staff to micromanage things at this level, never mind the local knowledge they would need. Most of the time things go smoothly enough that "whose fault was this screwup?" never becomes an issue. The WBF, like any good event rights-holder, scrutinizes venue bids closely and asks all the right questions, but to a great extent they rely on the locals to keep their promises.

So it makes perfect sense for the Israeli team to deal directly with the host organization on the matters in question. Perhaps getting the WBF administration involved earlier would have worked better, but it's useless to second-guess their approach at this distance.

And even if they had, at this late date the WBF has little leverage unless it decides the dispute is worth canceling the championships over -- it's not nearly as easy to move an event this size on short notice as some people appear to believe. No desirable venue will have the required amount of space sitting unbooked for a two-week competition on two months' notice. There's a reason these things are scheduled years in advance.

[Elianna]

hrothgar, on 2013-July-11, 09:58, said:

Personally, I can think of a lot better ways this could have ended. (I'm sure that everyone would prefer a situation in which the Israeli team was able to participate). At the same time, I can think of a lot worse ways that things could go, and I would include a event boycott, an event cancellation, or a change of venue in that category.

I agree with you, especially in the thought that there were many worse ways that things could go.

I do however take exception to George Jacobs calling this a good day for bridge. A good day for bridge is when certain teams will play each other in an international or European round robin without "security issues", "missed flights", or "sudden illnesses". That would be an excellent day for bridge (in this issue), but I don't know that it would happen anytime soon.

[GreenMan]

Maybe George Jacobs meant it in the aviation sense, i.e., "A good landing is one you walk away from." I believe this meets that standard.

(A great landing is one where they can use the plane again.)

[jonottawa]

paua, on 2013-July-11, 23:01, said:

Can I add here that I think the boys on BridgeWinners have given you an unneccessarily rude response. When it started down the anti-semitic name-calling part of the thread I think there were double-standards by BridgeWinners. It seems that groundless accusations can be made of "uncivilised / Muslim" countries on BridgeWinners, but any suggestion that the Israelis were expecting special treatment ("special snowflakes") is abhorrent.
I think they should rename BridgeWinners.

Thanks for saying that, it's nice to hear. (The first bit, I mean. I still like the guys who run BW and in general I'd much rather post in a forum with a little bit too little moderation than a little bit too much moderation.)

If someone wants to call me an a-hole I'm fine with that. I saw a bunch of disingenuous claims being made repeatedly (about the Israelis being denied visas or being banned or "denied access" or FORCED out) and I saw Roy Welland get branded with a hateful epithet and I started getting pretty mad. So I didn't play 'nice'. But I did play fair (imo.)

Was my 'special snowflake' or 'big-boy pants' language or Ladies First video going to win me any friends? Of course not. But when the other side is dragging the conversation into the gutter, I see no reason to be Mr. Friendly.

I was a little disappointed in a few people who should know better, but I've been disappointed by people I respected before.

[gnasher]

ggwhiz, on 2013-July-11, 20:03, said:

The only blank check I'm suggesting goes to the owners of the "show". They bring the bucks, they spend the bucks and any/all requests special or otherwise and final determination of the venue should flow through the WBF. That decision making authority looks to have been abdicated for no good reason.

As I understand it, the WBF doesn't "bring the bucks". The WBF brings the prestige and the players, but most of the funding comes from the host nation. I don't know how accurate this is, but the figure of US$1.5M was suggested on BridgeWinners.

[jdeegan]

gnasher, on 2013-July-12, 00:30, said:

As I understand it, the WBF doesn't "bring the bucks". The WBF brings the prestige and the players, but most of the funding comes from the host nation. I don't know how accurate this is, but the figure of US$1.5M was suggested on BridgeWinners.

$1.5 million USD seems way too much for a duplicate bridge game with a few hundred players. It could even be held online with appropriate monitors.

Players and each country (mostly the players) combine to pay the participants' travel and hotel and other expenses. The cash prize for winning? How about ZERO. Of course, the prestige of even going is worth a lot of money in many countries. But, that has nothing to do with the WBF or the host country.

Please. Don't get me wrong. I am very sympathetic with the Indonesian bridge players and the Indonesian people. All of us have become victims of an outrageous shake down attempt by a bunch of losers - the fading world of Islamic fundamentalist thugs.

[Fluffy]

its around 300.000€ for a european championship, BB has less teams and with the transnational going to singapur it looks like it should be cheap.

[mike777]

of course none of this is on topic guys.....

again cannot the Israel team just go to bali.....and tell their govt to shut up?

OTOH if they fear for their lives....or their loved ones...that is an issue to say no.

I mean should jewish(Zionist) americans fear for their life or their loved ones or go?

Should americans(anti whatever) go? I mean we americans are famous for being anti...lots of stuff....
------------------


OTOH if all of this is overblown..nonsense...silly.... racist/anti muslim....ok....

[jonottawa]

jdeegan, on 2013-July-12, 00:47, said:

$1.5 million USD seems way too much for a duplicate bridge game with a few hundred players. It could even be held online with appropriate monitors.

I'd like to see tournaments go online (with monitors) for a whole host of reasons. Cost, less cheating, disease, vugraph, timers (for slow play and for appeals cases,) # of entrants, entry fees, self-alerts, ability to ask questions without worrying about your partner drawing inferences, anonymous appeals and for some, physical security.

It seems like a no-brainer. But if the powers that be are working towards that, they're being awfully quiet about it. Maybe 'misclicks' are an insurmountable obstacle, I dunno. For me, the tradeoff between misclicking and never missorting your hand, revoking or leading out of turn is fair. If I misclick more than twice a year it's been a busy year.

Late edit:

I guess they'd also have to decide on a fair way of deciding what 'time zone' to pretend we're all in (I'd imagine it would have to rotate from tournament to tournament.) I hadn't considered that. It certainly wouldn't be much fun to start a day of bridge at 2:30 AM. Also, what to do if the Internet crashes at a site? Maybe not as much of a no-brainer as I had thought. But even if they keep the 'show up at such and such a place' concept, I'd like to see them move to playing on electronic devices, which still would offer many of the advantages I listed.

[mike777]

jonottawa, on 2013-July-12, 01:55, said:

I'd like to see tournaments go online for a whole host of reasons. Cost, less cheating, disease, vugraph, timers, # of entrants, entry fees, anonymous appeals and for some, physical security.

It seems like a no-brainer. But if the powers that be are working towards that, they're being awfully quiet about it. Maybe 'misclicks' are an insurmountable obstacle, I dunno. For me, the tradeoff between misclicking and never missorting your hand, revoking or leading out of turn is fair. If I misclick more than twice a year it's been a busy year.

per the previous 100 posts non of this is on topic including funny enough security


wbf and usbf stated none of this.


1) you make points; important points.
2) none of them on topic in this thread

[gnasher]

jdeegan, on 2013-July-12, 00:47, said:

$1.5 million USD seems way too much for a duplicate bridge game with a few hundred players.

There are always loads of staff at world championships - directors, appeals committee, administrators, technical people, bulletin staff, VuGraph commentators, and people with important-sounding job titles who wander around apparently not doing very much. The WBF's committees often hold their meetings at World Championships, so there are people who are there just for that. I assume that all of these people have their accommodation provided and their airfares paid for.

There is also a lot of equipment - tables, screens, boards, dealing machines, computers, etc. All of this has to be either transported to the venue or provided locally.

[the hog]

jdeegan, on 2013-July-11, 21:32, said:

OMG. Don't you know nuthin' about Indonesia. Shadow Play? "The Year of Living Dangerously". An island nation (empire?) with hundreds of islands. Four different religions. A former Dutch colony for several hundred years. People there are not what one would characterize as straightforward and for good reason. You don't have to be a genius to know what is happening. You just have to not be stupid.

With all due respect, I probably know far more about Indonesia than you do. I suspect many Indonesians would find your comment offensive.

[the hog]

jonottawa, on 2013-July-12, 00:18, said:

Thanks for saying that, it's nice to hear. (The first bit, I mean. I still like the guys who run BW and in general I'd much rather post in a forum with a little bit too little moderation than a little bit too much moderation.)

If someone wants to call me an a-hole I'm fine with that. I saw a bunch of disingenuous claims being made repeatedly (about the Israelis being denied visas or being banned or "denied access" or FORCED out) and I saw Roy Welland get branded with a hateful epithet and I started getting pretty mad. So I didn't play 'nice'. But I did play fair (imo.)

Was my 'special snowflake' or 'big-boy pants' language or Ladies First video going to win me any friends? Of course not. But when the other side is dragging the conversation into the gutter, I see no reason to be Mr. Friendly.

I was a little disappointed in a few people who should know better, but I've been disappointed by people I respected before.

Fwiw I also thought some of the comments made about you were outrageous, and frankly borderline racist.

[paua]

mike777, on 2013-July-12, 01:36, said:

of course none of this is on topic guys.....

again cannot the Israel team just go to bali.....and tell their govt to shut up?

OTOH if they fear for their lives....or their loved ones...that is an issue to say no.

I mean should jewish(Zionist) americans fear for their life or their loved ones or go?

Should americans(anti whatever) go? I mean we americans are famous for being anti...lots of stuff....
------------------


OTOH if all of this is overblown..nonsense...silly.... racist/anti muslim....ok....

Off-topic. This isn't about Americans Mike.

[jonottawa]

the hog, on 2013-July-12, 04:23, said:

Fwiw I also thought some of the comments made about you were outrageous, and frankly borderline racist.

Thanks, much appreciated. I did get one very nice piece of 'fan mail' over there and it kept me going when I was feeling isolated.

To be fair, I had some pretty 'outrageous' things to say myself. I was certainly deliberately needling people who I thought deserved it based on their own behavior. But if one side is throwing around hateful epithets and deliberately disingenuous arguments and the other side is 'needling' them for it, I fail to see how the appropriate response is to blast the 'needling' side after the issue has been settled.

Anyway, I shouldn't have steered the conversation in that direction, sorry. If BW moderation or behavior wrt this issue is to be discussed, probably best for me to do it over there.

[barmar]

mike777, on 2013-July-12, 01:36, said:

again cannot the Israel team just go to bali.....and tell their govt to shut up?

How are they going to get there, swim?

[hrothgar]

barmar, on 2013-July-12, 12:42, said:

How are they going to get there, swim?

By flying to Singapore, applying for a visa, and then flying to Bali...

[jdeegan]

the hog, on 2013-July-12, 04:20, said:

With all due respect, I probably know far more about Indonesia than you do. I suspect many Indonesians would find your comment offensive.

Sorry. I see extortion. I get angry, and I say stupid things. I apologize to you and to any Indonesians I may have offended. The only exception is to the ultimate perpetrators behind this little shake down.