[barsikb]

Dealer: North, Vul:None

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[eagles123]

1H (2S) 3D (4S) would seem a fairly clear start to the auction but how it proceeds after that I'm not sure!

[louisg]

eagles123, on 2013-July-28, 06:59, said:

1H (2S) 3D (4S) would seem a fairly clear start to the auction but how it proceeds after that I'm not sure!

Agree with this. Opener should now pass, which is forcing (since 3D was GF) and therefore shows a willingness to hear partner bid on but no clear direction (both 5D and 5C would be too committal). Responder now knows of extra values in opener's hand and some tolerance for diamonds (without which opener would be doubling or bidding one of his suits). A singleton spade is likely given both the opponents' bidding and the forcing pass, but is not assured. 6D is therefore probably the percentage action at this point, but comes with no guarantees.

4NT is also possible if you expect partner to take it as some form of Blackwood. Not everyone would assume this in a competitive auction where no fit has been agreed however. This is a complicated subject.

[barsikb]

1H (2S) 3D (4S) Yes, that's the way it started.

Forcing Pass - very interesting for me idea already...

[blackshoe]

I agree that pass should be forcing here. Most of my partners hear pass from me, they think "auction's over".

[mycroft]

I'm not sure 3♦ is GF, and I'm not sure that pass over 4♠ is forcing. I've got a better "you'll be confused" bid: 4NT. Should show two places to play, and willingness to play in Diamonds if partner really has it (as opposed to double which should be more 1=5=3=4ish). But I bet they'll think this is KC Diamonds instead...

[ahydra]

My partner seems to be afraid of forcing passes so would take 3D as GF but pass over 4S as NF. I think that means that North has to double, after which South can probably visualise enough for 6D. Ugly but it gets the job done.

Having said that... it doesn't look like you can quite make 6D on a spade lead and continuation. Dummy is forced to ruff and now you can't take the trump finesse, so have to try for a trump coup. This requires ruffing 3 things in the south hand to shorten its trumps. Let's see...

spade, spade ruff in dummy, heart K, heart A, heart ruff (1)
cross to DQ, heart ruff (2)
overtake CK with Ace, heart ruff (3)

This leaves dummy with ♣QJ102 and your hand with ♦AK10 ♣x. East has ♠K and ♦Jxx remaining. So the trump coup is there - but only if East has another club, which unfortunately he does not.

Of course, this isn't to say that 6D is the wrong contract. Barring any defensive ruffs, it just needs trumps to come in - a 90% shot.

ahydra

[louisg]

ahydra, on 2013-July-30, 06:01, said:

My partner seems to be afraid of forcing passes so would take 3D as GF but pass over 4S as NF. I think that means that North has to double, after which South can probably visualise enough for 6D. Ugly but it gets the job done.

I'm sorry, but if this is intended as advice for the N/B forum than it is quite misleading. You and your partner can agree to whatever you like, but it is virtually universal (and quite logical) to play that, once a GF has been established, the opponents do not get to play a contract undoubled. That makes the pass over 4S forcing by definition. The corollary to this, not quite as universal but still most common and logical, is that a double discourages partner from bidding on. Typically in an auction such as this you would double with wasted spade values, an overall minimum hand, and/or a misfit for partner.

[mcphee]

It seems there is some confusion about the value of the 3D bid, game forcing or not. Game Forcing is kinda placing the pre-empted pair under a lot of stress when the responder holds a decent 6 card minor. AKQxxx does not need very much from the opening hand to produce 3NT does it, in addition to the chance the N hand may have 3 cards in S not giving him the option to re-open the bidding should the S hand pass with AKQ 6th. This could easily lead to throwing away an easy 3NT opposite a minimum opening bid.

I thought this was an interesting bidding problem for the N hand, as it is tempting to show C, but I think raising D is more practical, placing some more faith in Qx than introducing the C which might lead to playing in H when D is best. If responders D suit is only 5 cards they will surely hold more than simply AK in the suit with out a round suit king.

[louisg]

mcphee, on 2013-August-06, 08:38, said:

Game Forcing is kinda placing the pre-empted pair under a lot of stress when the responder holds a decent 6 card minor.

I agree, but to play it as not game forcing puts opener under a lot of stress when he has some extra values but no clear direction. Imagine a hand like xx KJxxxx Ax AKx. If you can't bid a forcing 3H with this, then what do you do? Even if 3S is interpreted as a stopper ask, it doesn't show the 6th heart, which might be very important. I understand if a partnership wants to agree that 3D is not GF, but I don't think that is mainstream.

mcphee, on 2013-August-06, 08:38, said:

I thought this was an interesting bidding problem for the N hand, as it is tempting to show C, but I think raising D is more practical, placing some more faith in Qx than introducing the C which might lead to playing in H when D is best. If responders D suit is only 5 cards they will surely hold more than simply AK in the suit with out a round suit king.

Would it be surprising to find that responder's hand is something like Ax Kx Kxxxxx Qxx? Now 5D is at the mercy of a 3-2 diamond split, while there is an easy 300 or 500 available against 4Sx. That's another advantage of agreeing that 3D is GF; it allows opener to avail himself of a forcing pass if opponents compete further.

[barsikb]

Still not clear to me how to bid this hand. Not an easy one, of course. Slam or not?

[Zelandakh]

Basically eagles had it on post #1. The start is obvious but what happens after that is going to depend a lot on what agreements are in place. Let's assume that North passes next for example. Does this show extras (as louis writes) or is it just uncertainty about the final contract? If it were a slam try then South might well try 5NT next as "pick a slam". The North bids 6♣ and South continues 6♦ as "pick a red suit". Naturally North would choose diamonds and pass.

1♥ - (2♠) - 3♦ - (4♠);
P - (P) - 5NT - (P);
6♣ - (P) - 6♦


If pass does not show extras (usually you need to pass and then pull to show a slam try) then South will probably bid a mere 4NT, showing 2 places to play. North might bid only 5♣ now but it does not really matter since South should see that the 2 round suit kings are huge and jump to 6♦.

1♥ - (2♠) - 3♦ - (4♠);
P - (P) - 4NT - (P);
5♣ - (P) - 6♦


Finally, if we are not playing forcing passes at all, which would be normal for N/B players, North probably bids 5♣ over 4♠. Again, South should now visualise that their hand is golden and jump to slam. It would be nice to be able to offer a choice of red suits along the way (via 5NT for example) but this auction assumes N/B agreements so that would not be available.

1♥ - (2♠) - 3♦ - (4♠);
5♣ - (P) - 6♦

[louisg]

Zelandakh, on 2013-August-12, 07:31, said:

Basically eagles had it on post #1. The start is obvious but what happens after that is going to depend a lot on what agreements are in place. Let's assume that North passes next for example. Does this show extras (as louis writes) or is it just uncertainty about the final contract? If it were a slam try then South might well try 5NT next as "pick a slam". The North bids 6♣ and South continues 6♦ as "pick a red suit". Naturally North would choose diamonds and pass.

1♥ - (2♠) - 3♦ - (4♠);
P - (P) - 5NT - (P);
6♣ - (P) - 6♦


If pass does not show extras (usually you need to pass and then pull to show a slam try) then South will probably bid a mere 4NT, showing 2 places to play. North might bid only 5♣ now but it does not really matter since South should see that the 2 round suit kings are huge and jump to 6♦.

1♥ - (2♠) - 3♦ - (4♠);
P - (P) - 4NT - (P);
5♣ - (P) - 6♦


Finally, if we are not playing forcing passes at all, which would be normal for N/B players, North probably bids 5♣ over 4♠. Again, South should now visualise that their hand is golden and jump to slam. It would be nice to be able to offer a choice of red suits along the way (via 5NT for example) but this auction assumes N/B agreements so that would not be available.

1♥ - (2♠) - 3♦ - (4♠);
5♣ - (P) - 6♦

"Forcing pass" should not be treated as a convention that one plays or doesn't play. It is a concept that stems naturally from the fact that it makes no sense to let the opponents play in an undoubled contract once our side has shown the values to force to game. Some N/B players may not be familiar with this concept, but they should be exposed to it as soon as possible (certainly before conventions like 5NT = "pick a slam").

I agree that making a forcing pass, followed by bidding again if partner doubles, is usually treated as a slam try. That doesn't contradict the use of a forcing pass to show extra values and give partner the choice between doubling and bidding on. When I make a forcing pass over 4S with the North hand, it is at that point simply a request for partner to say whether his hand is more offensively or defensively oriented in the context of what he has already shown. Here he is more offensively oriented, and has extra values of his own, so bidding 6D is a reasonable guess (but I wouldn't criticize a 5D bid instead).