[CSGibson]

I echo Roger's sentiments - this is not because I am in any position to judge world-class vs expert, or whatever. But my experience in Atlanta, where I competed with a flight B partner for the first part of the week where we failed to get out of the first day of the GNT B's, and barely scraped up a 2nd day LM Pairs showing, differed greatly from my experience when I played with a partner who is, in my opinion, a national caliber player later in the week in the Spingolds.

In the beginning of the week we did not have methods to get to places. My inherent nature as a bridge player is to be collaborative and delicate in the bidding and defense - that works very poorly in a partnership where there aren't delicate tools, or where a partner does not have the judgment to respond well to delicate probes, but it pays great dividends opposite a partner who has exceptional judgment and who notices the nuances of the cards played, and our results greatly improved as a result.

[mike777]

Since Roger mentioned the top 100. Here is one possible list to push the discussion.

Open World Grand Masters

Rank Name Country MPs PPs

1
Fulvio FANTONI Monaco 4859 41
2
Claudio NUNES Monaco 4671 39
3
Giorgio DUBOIN Italy 4004 42
4
Alfredo VERSACE Italy 3865 46
5
Lorenzo LAURIA Italy 3628 50.5
6
Jeff MECKSTROTH U.S.A. 3583 61.25
7
Bob HAMMAN U.S.A. 3502 109.25
8
Eric RODWELL U.S.A. 3391 60.75
9
Geir HELGEMO Monaco 3092 34.5
10
Tor HELNESS Monaco 3031 36
11
Zia MAHMOOD U.S.A. 2942 31.75
12
Norberto BOCCHI Italy 2842 34
13
Nick NICKELL U.S.A. 2821 38.25
14
Cezary BALICKI Poland 2542 29
15
Ralph KATZ U.S.A. 2373 22.25
16
Bauke MULLER Netherlands 2363 18
17
Louk VERHEES Jr Netherlands 2345 11
18
Sjoert BRINK Netherlands 2332 12.5
19
Antonio SEMENTA Italy 2320 18
20
Robert (Bobby) LEVIN U.S.A. 2306 21
21
Bas DRIJVER Netherlands 2291 12.5
23
Adam ZMUDZINSKI Poland 2264 29
24
Ricco VAN PROOIJEN Netherlands 2204 10.5
25
Simon DE WIJS Netherlands 2187 10
26
Franck MULTON Monaco 2184 21
27
Peter BERTHEAU Sweden 2130 11.5
28
Steve WEINSTEIN U.S.A. 2101 13
29
Fredrik NYSTROM Sweden 2064 11.5 31
Pierre ZIMMERMANN Monaco 1925 11
35
Geoff HAMPSON U.S.A. 1805 12.75
36
Michael ROSENBERG U.S.A. 1757 25.75
37
Chip MARTEL U.S.A. 1753 41
38
Eric GRECO U.S.A. 1748 10.25
39
Boye BROGELAND Norway 1713 15.5
40
Jacek PSZCZOLA U.S.A. 1704 15
41
Lew STANSBY U.S.A. 1701 41.5
44
Zhong FU China 1646 10.5
45
Fred GITELMAN U.S.A. 1630 15.25
48
Brad MOSS U.S.A. 1584 11.75
49
Glenn GROETHEIM Norway 1537 17.5
52
Gabriel CHAGAS Brazil 1472 41.5 58
Erik SAELENSMINDE Norway 1395 14.5
61
Richard (Dick) FREEMAN U.S.A. 1337 28.75
65
Alan SONTAG U.S.A. 1278 19.5
68
Piotr GAWRYS Poland 1236 18
70
Giorgio BELLADONNA Italy 1188 75.5
74
Paul SOLOWAY U.S.A. 1149 44.75
76
Krzysztof MARTENS Poland 1080 17.5 88
Marcelo CASTELLO BRANCO Brazil 1021 35.5
89
Walter AVARELLI Italy 1020 40
95
Roger TREZEL France 990 17.5
103
Jeremy FLINT Great Britain 932 14.5


http://www.worldbrid...enwmasters.aspx

[the hog]

As a few in your list are dead it would be interesting to see them play, Mike. I guess it could be described as a "spiritual experience"?

[mikeh]

 CSGibson, on 2013-August-16, 15:19, said:

I echo Roger's sentiments - this is not because I am in any position to judge world-class vs expert, or whatever. But my experience in Atlanta, where I competed with a flight B partner for the first part of the week where we failed to get out of the first day of the GNT B's, and barely scraped up a 2nd day LM Pairs showing, differed greatly from my experience when I played with a partner who is, in my opinion, a national caliber player later in the week in the Spingolds.

In the beginning of the week we did not have methods to get to places. My inherent nature as a bridge player is to be collaborative and delicate in the bidding and defense - that works very poorly in a partnership where there aren't delicate tools, or where a partner does not have the judgment to respond well to delicate probes, but it pays great dividends opposite a partner who has exceptional judgment and who notices the nuances of the cards played, and our results greatly improved as a result.

I don't see how your experience tells us much. No-one has said, that I can see, that the WC player will do well with a player of significantly lesser ability. My point was that a WC player playing with a real expert will often bring out the best n the expert.

Where I suspect I differ from Roger is that I suspect he thinks less of experts than I do, probably because we use different definitions. For example, he suggests that an expert may not understand signalling. I don't see how anyone has a legitimate claim to being expert if lacking that skill.

To me the main differences between a WC player, and an expert such as me, lies more in consistency of focus, and competitive judgment, than in card play technique or card reading.

I am not, for one moment, claiming card play or reading at WC levels: what I am saying is that the gains that a Rodwell will get over me or a similar expert in card play will occur on only a few hands....maybe one a session, if that. Otoh, in slam bidding, competitive auctions and, most of all, staying focused, I would expect several swings a session.

I think that focus can be helped by example: so that playing with a WC player would tend to help the expert play to his or her top level.

If skill levels are widely variant, then I agree with you. I occasionally play with friends, who are non-expert, and I am definitely unable to play my best game since they don't know how to cooperate in the defence or the bidding.

[cherdano]

 mikeh, on 2013-August-17, 08:06, said:

Where I suspect I differ from Roger is that I suspect he thinks less of experts than I do, probably because we use different definitions. For example, he suggests that an expert may not understand signalling. I don't see how anyone has a legitimate claim to being expert if lacking that skill.

I don't think it's fair to paraphrase "knowing how to signal, when it's important, and when it's not" as "understanding signalling". Let me try to paraphrase: in order to decide perfectly when and how to signal, you need to
- work out what the right defense is given various possible hands for partner,
- for each of these hands, decide which possible lines of defense could be right from partner's point of view,
- and then make the signal that will most often get partner to pursue the most successful defense.
And that's of course drastically oversimplifying things, since you should also falsecard (or not signal at all) when the hand is more likely to be decided on a guess by declarer. Unless of course you realize that declarer will get the guess right anyway...

All that seems about as hard as defending well.

How often does that matter? I wouldn't argue with one swing on defense per session for Meckwell over an expert. But I don't consider that a small advantage.

[CSGibson]

 mikeh, on 2013-August-17, 08:06, said:

I don't see how your experience tells us much. No-one has said, that I can see, that the WC player will do well with a player of significantly lesser ability. My point was that a WC player playing with a real expert will often bring out the best n the expert.

What I was implying was that my relative skill compared to a good flight B player is probably equivalent to the gap between a worldclass player and an expert, and that those unbalanced partnerships can really hurt if the more skilled player has trouble adjusting for their partner's blind spots.

[Fluffy]

I looked at pavlicek and it surprised me this:


Helgemo 22.8968.
Helness 28.2363.


Hellness declares so much compared to helgemo? 2000 boards is big enough to mean something. Perhaps Whoever uses the bridgemate when they are NS just puts North and forgets?

[PhilKing]

 Fluffy, on 2013-August-18, 09:46, said:

I looked at pavlicek and it surprised me this:


Helgemo 22.8968.
Helness 28.2363.


Hellness declares so much compared to helgemo? 2000 boards is big enough to mean something. Perhaps Whoever uses the bridgemate when they are NS just puts North and forgets?

After having another look, there is something even stranger - almost all the clients played more hands than their partner.

[PhilKing]

 Fluffy, on 2013-August-18, 09:46, said:

I looked at pavlicek and it surprised me this:


Helgemo 22.8968.
Helness 28.2363.


Hellness declares so much compared to helgemo? 2000 boards is big enough to mean something. Perhaps Whoever uses the bridgemate when they are NS just puts North and forgets?

After having another look, there is something even stranger - almost all the clients played more hands than their partner.

Disclaimer - Helness is not a client.

[mike777]

If roughly there are only 100-200 truly world class players out of 2-3 million worldwide bridge players.....

I think we can see the issue.

The median ACBL player has far less than 100mp and is much older than 60.

I assume we can say the same median skill/age level in your NBO world

I think it was HOG who noted that World Grand Masters are dead.

[Mbodell]

A different list of top players, based on Spingold/Vanderbilt results over the past 5 years (you get 1 point for every round past R64, so 6 points for a win). From bridge winners

Quote

1)Brad Moss ....5+3+2+5+1+4+6+3+4+5=total....38

2)Bobby Levin....3+3+5+2+4+6+2+5+1+6=total....37

2)Steve Weinstein....3+3+5+2+4+6+2+5+1+6=total....37

4)Tor Helness....1+2+6+2+6+2+3+6+5+2=total....35

5)Fulvio Fantoni....1+2+6+2+6+2+5+4+2+4=total....34

5)Claudio Nunes....1+2+6+2+6+2+5+4+2+4=total....34

7)Fred Gitelman....0+3+2+5+1+4+6+3+4+5=total....33

7)John Diamond....2+1+2+5+1+4+6+3+4+5=total....33

7)Eric Greco....2+1+2+5+1+4+6+3+4+5=total....33

7)Geoff Hampson....2+1+2+5+1+4+6+3+4+5=total....33

7)Brian Platnick....2+1+2+5+1+4+6+3+4+5=total....33

7)Franck Moulton....1+2+6+2+6+2+4+6+2+2=total....33

13)Ralph Katz....3+3+5+1+5+3+2+2+2+6=total....32

14)Geir Helgemo....1+2+6+2+6+2+4+6+2+2=total....30

14)Nick Nickell....3+3+5+1+5+3+2+2+2+4=total....30

14)Jeff Meckstroth....3+3+5+1+5+3+2+2+2+4=total....30

14)Eric Rodwell....3+3+5+1+5++3+2+2+2+4=total....30

14)Chip Martel....2+4+3++2+4+6+2+5+1+1=total....30

19) Marty Fleisher....2+4+3+2+4+6+2+5+1+0=total....29

19) Michael Kamil....2+4+3+2+4+6+2+5+1+0=total....29

21) Zia....2+4+3+1+5+3+2+2+2+4=total....28

21) Joe Grue....5+3+2+6+0+5+1+2+2+2=total....28

23) Pierre Zimmerman....1+2+6+2+6+2+0+6+0+2=total....27

23) Michael Seamon....2+2+4+2+4+3+4+2+0+4=total....27

23) Jimmy Cayne....2+2+4+2++4+3+4+2+0+4=total....27

23) Alfredo Versace....2+2+4+2+4+3+4+2+0+4=total....27

23) Lorenzo Lauria....2+2+4+2+4+3+4+2+0+4=total....27

28) Thomas Bessis....5+3+1+6+0+2+1+6+0+2=total....26

28) Lew Stansby.....3+1+1+2+4+6+2+5+1+1=total....26

28) Andrew Gromov.....4+2+3+2+3+2+2+3+4+1=total....26

28) Aleksander Dubinin....4+2+3+2+3+2+2+3+4+1=total....26

28) Carolyn Lynch....3+2+3+2+3+2+2+3+4+2=total....26

28) Mike Passell....3+3+2+3+2+2+3+4+2=total....26

34) Giogio Duboin....0+2+4+2+4+3+4+1+2+3=total.....25

34) Antonio Sementa....0+2+4+2+4+3+4+1+2+3=total....25

34) Tarek Sadek....0+1+2+3+2+2+3+3+3+6=total....25

34) Walid Elahmady....0+1+2+3+2+2+3+3+3+6=total....25

34) Cezary Balicki....3+2+3+2+3+2+2+3+4+1=total....25

34) Adam Zmudzinski....3+2+3+2+3+2+2+3+4+1=total....25

40) Alan Sontag....1+1+4+3+1+1+5+1+5+2=total....24

40) Louk Verhees....1+5+3+1+2+2+0+2+6+2=total....24

42) Curtis Cheek....1+2+2+6+0+5+1+2+2+2=total....23

42) Peter Bertheau....5+3+1+4+1+1+1+4+3+0=total....23

42) Cornelius Van Prooijen....1+5+3+1+2+2+0+1+6+2=total....23

45) David Berkowitz....1+1+4+3+1+1+5+1+5+0=total....22

45) Bob Hamman....3+0+0+1++5+3+2+2+2+4=total....22

45) Boye Brogeland....4+0+1+1+2+2+3+4+2+3=total....22

45) Roy Welland....3+6+2+2+3+1+2+0+1+2=total....22

[Zelandakh]

Helness 4th, Helgemo =14th - definitely "at the bottom of the list" of top players then. So now we know, there are presumably ~15-20 top players in the world on that list. Anyone below 14 on Mbodell's list should be treated as "second rate". Doh, sorry Justin, second place in the BB just isn't good enough apparently.

[Antrax]

That list favors consistency. Anyone can get lucky once

[paua]

 Antrax, on 2013-August-20, 04:29, said:

That list favors consistency. Anyone can get lucky once

or miss a year or two.
These are USA competitions ?

[Fluffy]

yes, USA competitions, there are many top players in Asia who never play there, and some europeans as well.