[WGF_Flame]

South claim that north pass over 4♣ double should show stronger hand than he had.
North claim that his hand is not the worse hand (he doesnt have waste in club) and he is not showing more than this (he could cue bid if he had a very good hand).

{comments}

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link to the hand My link

[rhm]

South is solely to blame. He overbid severely.
He misbid. 4♣ should not denote a two-suiter, at least not, if the side suit needs help.
How is North supposed to know that ♠532 ♥KQ5 ♦QJ75 ♣872 is bad but ♠KJ2 ♥KQ5 ♦7543 ♣872 is fine?
If South wants to explore slam he should bid 3♠. What else can that be?

By the way this one does not belong in this forum. Other ones are fine.

Rainer Herrmann

[WGF_Flame]

rhm, thanks for the vote and answer, but since you dont know the players (the south player is a true expert), you better avoid the last coments.

[Rezo1325]

Hi all

I was the south in this hand.
To clarify several issues here.
1) I don't consider myself "expert"
2) Should be taken in account that partner doesn't play anything special in slam bidding. e.g. help suit slam try,
3) This is a casual and extremely passive partner.
3♠ would show A,K,Single or void in ♠ , but 3♦ would show help suit game try since i didn't bid it and opponents didn't bid ♠
couldn't he figure out that I have ♠?

P.S. I do agree that the question shouldn't be asked here.

[helene_t]

I don't think that North's pass promises extra strength in a casual partnership. There is a general principle that pass-and-pull is strong in a forcing pass situation but here I would expect pass to deny a club control, if it says anything at all. There is some logic to pass (or redouble?) being stronger than 4♥ since it gives partner room to bid 4♦. Anyway, whatever the pass means, North had good trumps and no club vastage so his hand is good in context.

From South's point of view, North needs three of the cards ♠K ♥KQ ♦A for slam to be really good, although it will have good chances with just ♦A and ♠K. This is a lot to ask for considering that North just made a simple raise.

The 4♣ bid doesn't make it easy for North to evaluate his hand. How is he to know that ♦QJ are worthless while the lack of spade help is a big problem? A 3♠ help-suit trial or a 4♦ splinter would have worked much better. But OK, in a casual partnership this is maybe not realistic.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Could you make the diagram any smaller ?

[WGF_Flame]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-November-25, 08:25, said:

Could you make the diagram any smaller ?

sry dont know how to control the size, but manage to add a link

[aguahombre]

When one player makes a virtually nondescript slam try and then accepts his own slam try with very little further information, the blame or credit for the bad or good result is solely upon that player.

As a side matter, after a simple raise slam is so rare that ---when a prebalance such as this 3C bid comes in---we would just bid 3♠ to let partner judge whether to continue if the opponents take an advance sacrifice in clubs.

[Rezo1325]

Hi again

What you guys would have bid over 3♣ with this?

AKx♠
AJ10xx♥
AKxx♦
x♣

[Cyberyeti]

helene_t, on 2013-November-25, 06:55, said:

I don't think that North's pass promises extra strength in a casual partnership. There is a general principle that pass-and-pull is strong in a forcing pass situation but here I would expect pass to deny a club control, if it says anything at all. There is some logic to pass (or redouble?) being stronger than 4♥ since it gives partner room to bid 4♦. Anyway, whatever the pass means, North had good trumps and no club vastage so his hand is good in context.

From South's point of view, North needs three of the cards ♠K ♥KQ ♦A for slam to be really good, although it will have good chances with just ♦A and ♠K. This is a lot to ask for considering that North just made a simple raise.

The 4♣ bid doesn't make it easy for North to evaluate his hand. How is he to know that ♦QJ are worthless while the lack of spade help is a big problem? A 3♠ help-suit trial or a 4♦ splinter would have worked much better. But OK, in a casual partnership this is maybe not realistic.

Were you really bidding something other than 2♥ with Kxx, Kxxx, xxx, xxx ? which is sufficient.

The problem here is that 3♠ should show spades here, not a cue bid. Partner will then be able to evaluate. If you do bid 3♠, what would 3N be from partner ? if you bid 3N here nat/serious/frivolous ?

[aguahombre]

Rezo1325, on 2013-November-25, 09:41, said:

Hi again

What you guys would have bid over 3♣ with this?

AKx♠
AJ10xx♥
AKxx♦
x♣

JLALL knows the answer to this. 6♦, obviously.

[Fluffy]

the 2♥ bidder had 2 keycards and a useful side QJ, trying to put any blame on his side is ridicoulous.

Some of the above comments seem to suggest that having no club wastage is better than having it, I think their wording could be improved, we would rather have a 9 count with ♣K than a 5 count without it.

[aguahombre]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-25, 10:00, said:

Were you really bidding something other than 2♥ with Kxx, Kxxx, xxx, xxx ? which is sufficient.

The problem here is that 3♠ should show spades here, not a cue bid. Partner will then be able to evaluate. If you do bid 3♠, what would 3N be from partner ? if you bid 3N here nat/serious/frivolous ?

If you are suggesting that KXX KXXX XXX XXX could use 3NT over South's 3S bid to show these golden primes and the extra heart, it would be a great agreement even if I wouldn't use the terms "serious/frivolous". If it isn't what you were suggesting, I still like it. Now we will hear from the Bergen raisers who can't have that.

[rhm]

Rezo1325, on 2013-November-25, 09:41, said:

Hi again

What you guys would have bid over 3♣ with this?

AKx♠
AJ10xx♥
AKxx♦
x♣

I would rather bid 4♣ with this hand and 3♠ with the other one. But I would still prefer 3♦ with this hand. Again opposite your partner's hand we belong in 6♦.
A new suit below 3NT might be ambiguous.
However, Bridge logic tells you, that after a single raise if you consider slam, a help suit trial bid is much more useful than exchanging information about controls.
This can be done after the help suit trial bid has been accepted.

Rainer Herrmann

[Fluffy]

Rezo1325, on 2013-November-25, 06:29, said:

3♠ would show A,K,Single or void in ♠ , but 3♦ would show help suit game try since i didn't bid it and opponents didn't bid ♠
couldn't he figure out that I have ♠?

I would rather use game commiting unbid suits on competitive auctions as natural, to help partner take informed decisions at the 5 level mainly, but which could turn into slam tries as well.

[mcphee]

How can South find North taking any poor choices? South just blasted what he had a hope of making, and indeed found the magic hand. That's the one where your plus score disappears, aka houdini action

[Cyberyeti]

aguahombre, on 2013-November-25, 10:27, said:

If you are suggesting that KXX KXXX XXX XXX could use 3NT over South's 3S bid to show these golden primes and the extra heart, it would be a great agreement even if I wouldn't use the terms "serious/frivolous". If it isn't what you were suggesting, I still like it. Now we will hear from the Bergen raisers who can't have that.

Well actually we don't use serious/frivolous, we make 3N replace the most expensive cue bid so it would show K♠.

[aguahombre]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-25, 10:41, said:

Well actually we don't use serious/frivolous, we make 3N replace the most expensive cue bid so it would show K♠.

That would work also if you only do it with an extra trump and another keycard.

[WGF_Flame]

I think i finnaly understand the ressons for rezo to bid like that had has much more sympaty for the bid then before.
They play italian cue bid style, never showing long suit for slams, in this style he assume that his 4♣ bid show control in club, but more importantly deny a control in ♠. Over this 4♣ partner must sign off in 4♥ without heart control. therefore the pass of the double shows a ♠ control. K would be great for south, single is less good, but not totally bad, and I think K is more likely on this auction by all players.
The other factors are that the opps bid and double club, partner therefore likely to not have wasted value there.
and the last factor is that partner with control in ♠ and ♦ would definetly bid 4♦, so strangly 4♣ pass tell him that partner doesnt have a control in diamond either so no wasted K of diamond.
now versus a hand with K of spade, no control in diamond, no waste in club, the chances of slam to be atleast on finnese are great.

This might be a little to much assuming, but still.

[neilkaz]

While I would bid 4♥ over the x with North's junk, the blame is almost entirely South's since he certainly could make one more slam try with 4♦.