Help
Page 1 of 1
Spannish Trials 5 ATB for missing game
#1
- World International Master without a clue
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 17,404
- Joined: 2003-November-13
- Gender:Male
- Location:madrid
#2
- Csaba the Hutt
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 13,027
- Joined: 2006-June-16
- Gender:Male
- Interests:bye
Posted 2014-January-12, 16:27
East 100% for describing a 2♣ opening as a good takeout double. Yes I see that he doubled twice but 2♠ still doesn't show what he has. I think he can bid 3♠ and then W can accept.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
George Carlin
George Carlin
#3
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 6,575
- Joined: 2004-March-12
- Gender:Male
- Location:UK
Posted 2014-January-12, 16:38
1S could be a 3 card suit, right?
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. m
s
t
r-m
nd
ing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.
"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. m
str-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees."Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
#4
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 14,216
- Joined: 2009-July-13
- Location:England
Posted 2014-January-12, 17:13
Is this a good game ? If S has ♥AJ or ♦Q or a stiff diamond you may very well not be making 4♠, in fact if N leads ♦ Ax and you guess wrong, you might not even make 3.
#5
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 10,728
- Joined: 2003-March-07
- Gender:Male
- Location:Laos
- Interests:Wagner and Bridge
Posted 2014-January-12, 18:10
I agree with CY. This is not a great game and I am not sorry not to be in it.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
#6
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 1,512
- Joined: 2003-February-16
Posted 2014-January-12, 18:25
If your partner opened 2NT , and you had this hand are you insisting on game? I'm not. I would have cue bid rather than just bid 2S which is not going to get responder going either.
#7
- Slightly less bad player
-
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 964
- Joined: 2012-October-16
- Gender:Female
- Interests:Bridge
Posted 2014-January-12, 19:31
I blame south for not having the ♦Q
Become yourself.
#8
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 74
- Joined: 2005-November-01
- Gender:Male
- Location:Maryland, USA
Posted 2014-January-13, 01:13
West could have a stronger hand and still pass 2♠ without blame.
#9
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 879
- Joined: 2009-December-20
- Gender:Male
- Location:Podunk, backwater USA
Posted 2014-January-13, 01:29
I don't really blame either player, though over a 2NT opening and 3♥ transfer I would completely blame East if (s)he didn't super-accept with that hand.
If I have to blame someone, then I blame whoever decided that a 2NT overcall specifically in this seat WOULD NOT show a very strong balanced hand like this one.
If I have to blame someone, then I blame whoever decided that a 2NT overcall specifically in this seat WOULD NOT show a very strong balanced hand like this one.
"It's not enough to win the tricks that belong to you. Try also for some that belong to the opponents."
"Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make them all yourself."
"One advantage of bad bidding is that you get practice at playing atrocious contracts."
-Alfred Sheinwold
"Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make them all yourself."
"One advantage of bad bidding is that you get practice at playing atrocious contracts."
-Alfred Sheinwold
#10
- World International Master without a clue
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 17,404
- Joined: 2003-November-13
- Gender:Male
- Location:madrid
Posted 2014-January-13, 05:36
chasetb, on 2014-January-13, 01:29, said:
I don't really blame either player, though over a 2NT opening and 3♥ transfer I would completely blame East if (s)he didn't super-accept with that hand.
If I have to blame someone, then I blame whoever decided that a 2NT overcall specifically in this seat WOULD NOT show a very strong balanced hand like this one.
If I have to blame someone, then I blame whoever decided that a 2NT overcall specifically in this seat WOULD NOT show a very strong balanced hand like this one.
Perhaps East could bid 2NT over 1♥ instead of doubling again?, but that would bury the 4-4 spade fit if there is one.
#11
- World International Master without a clue
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 17,404
- Joined: 2003-November-13
- Gender:Male
- Location:madrid
Posted 2014-January-13, 05:39
What does a 2♠ jump from west show after he has not been able to bid 1♠ over 1♥?
#12
- World International Master without a clue
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 17,404
- Joined: 2003-November-13
- Gender:Male
- Location:madrid
Posted 2014-January-13, 06:07
Lord Molyb, on 2014-January-12, 19:31, said:
I blame south for not having the ♦Q
You have 25 HCP leaving 15 for the opponents, playing for ♦Q for not being on the 1♦ opener's hands its not a good bet.
#13
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 14,216
- Joined: 2009-July-13
- Location:England
Posted 2014-January-13, 10:50
Fluffy, on 2014-January-13, 06:07, said:
You have 25 HCP leaving 15 for the opponents, playing for ♦Q for not being on the 1♦ opener's hands its not a good bet.
Responder has bid 1♥, 10/5 or 11/4 are very likely, if it's 10/5 the 6-1 diamond break is very likely
#14
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 13,033
- Joined: 2005-June-15
- Gender:Male
- Location:Canada
- Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.
Posted 2014-January-13, 11:08
I think West has a fairly clear 2 ♠ call over the 2nd double. That 5th spade is a huge card, especially when partner will have to consider that West could be something like 3=3=4=3 zero count.
While it is easy to point to East's superficially timid 2♠ raise, that is fair only if one accepts that West could have a still better hand than he had for his 1♠ bid.
IMO, East has spoken as follows:
1. I have a takeout double of 1♦, which could include a very big hand but usually won't
2. I have a bigger than normal takeout double
3. I heard you pass over 1♥ the first time, so you have a weak hand. I heard you bid only 1♠ the second time, so you don't have a good hand in the context of point 2. Do you have ANY excuse to bid again?
For west, who has held back very conservatively over the 2nd double, to now deny having a good hand in context is simply wrong.
This is a common problem for many players. Those who claim East should be more aggressive may have a point in that East could well have chosen 2N on his second call, but double (with those spades and only 1 diamond stopper) is not, imo, a clear error.
Having got to that point, west failed to understand what the auction was asking him: he failed to see that his hand, which he had limited to being really bad, was (in that context) quite strong. Equally, those who criticize the 2♠ raise fail to understand what that call meant: it was asking partner, who had announced a horrible hand, whether he had any reason to bid. Clearly he did.
As for the game: this is red at imps. I am usually one of the posters who, on an ATB for missing game, points out that game wasn't that great. This is clearly a game one wants to be in, even tho it is far from cold.
While it is easy to point to East's superficially timid 2♠ raise, that is fair only if one accepts that West could have a still better hand than he had for his 1♠ bid.
IMO, East has spoken as follows:
1. I have a takeout double of 1♦, which could include a very big hand but usually won't
2. I have a bigger than normal takeout double
3. I heard you pass over 1♥ the first time, so you have a weak hand. I heard you bid only 1♠ the second time, so you don't have a good hand in the context of point 2. Do you have ANY excuse to bid again?
For west, who has held back very conservatively over the 2nd double, to now deny having a good hand in context is simply wrong.
This is a common problem for many players. Those who claim East should be more aggressive may have a point in that East could well have chosen 2N on his second call, but double (with those spades and only 1 diamond stopper) is not, imo, a clear error.
Having got to that point, west failed to understand what the auction was asking him: he failed to see that his hand, which he had limited to being really bad, was (in that context) quite strong. Equally, those who criticize the 2♠ raise fail to understand what that call meant: it was asking partner, who had announced a horrible hand, whether he had any reason to bid. Clearly he did.
As for the game: this is red at imps. I am usually one of the posters who, on an ATB for missing game, points out that game wasn't that great. This is clearly a game one wants to be in, even tho it is far from cold.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
#15
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 796
- Joined: 2010-October-21
- Gender:Male
- Location:Copenhagen, Denmark
Posted 2014-January-13, 11:51
I agree that 2♠ over the second double would have been a good bid.
Michael Askgaard
#16
- 5555
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 9,519
- Joined: 2003-September-04
- Gender:Male
Posted 2014-February-07, 10:58
West's final pass was very very bad.
I really disagree that East should bid 3♠ here. Consider West's range: with a 5-card suit and 5 hcp, he would have bid 1♠ over 1♥. Same with a 4-card suit and 7 hcp. Over the second double, he should jump to 2♠ when he is maximum for his range so far (since he can be assured of a fit). So the range for 1♠ is maybe 0-3 with a 5-card suit, and 0-5 with a 4-card suit; and as Mike says, 3 hcp with 5 spades might well bid 2♠. 2♠ by takeout doubler now says we make game opposite a maximum in that range. Seems to me it describes East's hand perfectly. (Even opposite an ace game isn't cold if partner does not have a ruffing value.)
I really disagree that East should bid 3♠ here. Consider West's range: with a 5-card suit and 5 hcp, he would have bid 1♠ over 1♥. Same with a 4-card suit and 7 hcp. Over the second double, he should jump to 2♠ when he is maximum for his range so far (since he can be assured of a fit). So the range for 1♠ is maybe 0-3 with a 5-card suit, and 0-5 with a 4-card suit; and as Mike says, 3 hcp with 5 spades might well bid 2♠. 2♠ by takeout doubler now says we make game opposite a maximum in that range. Seems to me it describes East's hand perfectly. (Even opposite an ace game isn't cold if partner does not have a ruffing value.)
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
#17
- VIP Member
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 6,971
- Joined: 2009-November-14
- Gender:Male
- Location:Houston, TX
Posted 2014-February-07, 12:48
I am in the same camp with people who thinks this is on West more than East.
And for those who says this is not a great game, i will ask "Since when do we need it to be a great game, when we bid games at IMP scoring ?"
And for those who says this is not a great game, i will ask "Since when do we need it to be a great game, when we bid games at IMP scoring ?"
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
#18
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 2,211
- Joined: 2006-April-22
Posted 2014-February-08, 07:36
West transfers to spades after X, then 2NT rebid. Much improving the 4S play.
Which of HAJ, DAQ, CA won't be North for his opener?
Which of HAJ, DAQ, CA won't be North for his opener?
#19
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 14,216
- Joined: 2009-July-13
- Location:England
Posted 2014-February-09, 16:43
dake50, on 2014-February-08, 07:36, said:
West transfers to spades after X, then 2NT rebid. Much improving the 4S play.
Which of HAJ, DAQ, CA won't be North for his opener?
Which of HAJ, DAQ, CA won't be North for his opener?
Whatever S had for his 1♥ bid, he could have passed.
Page 1 of 1