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Poor judgement or bad luck?

#21 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2014-March-03, 08:07

I agree with many of the comments:

(1) West should make a call. 1 over 1 is not the worst call I have ever seen, but the suit is nothing to write home about. However, once partner bids 2, you have to bid spades.
(2) The double of 5 is very poor. Did you really expect to beat this contract more than one? If you are doubling for a one-trick set, it is not worth the risk. I would not be shocked if the contract made with an overtrick (surprised, perhaps, but not shocked - Give North x xx AJxxxxx xxx). If the contract is so bad that you are beating it more than one, you are already winning IMPs on the board. In that case, chalk it up as a lost opportunity.
(3) The diamond lead is hard to fathom.
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#22 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-March-03, 09:01

 Jinksy, on 2014-March-03, 04:22, said:

Do you agree about the X, or just the play?

The others have covered the double; my observation was about the correct line of play and how it would have been influenced by West's choices ---even with a tougher attack at tricks one and two.

As a side note, I am not as convinced as others that N/S knew what they were doing on the auction. This is biased by our own style, but nevertheless they stumbled into a pretty good 5D contract. That part might be considered bad luck since your teammates didn't get to game --or not..perhaps your counterparts' auction made it more difficult to get there.
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#23 User is offline   jogs 

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Posted 2014-March-03, 09:17

 aguahombre, on 2014-March-02, 21:27, said:

Rainer is correct. The contract is cold on any lead. It is not double dummy; it is the only possible line ---made more comfortable by West not being able to raise Clubs, yet doubling.


J, overtake with Q. Heart back. Are you claiming you would play the A without a double? The double alerted declarer that the major suit kings were off.
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#24 User is offline   mfa1010 

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Posted 2014-March-03, 09:59

Disagree with many of the decisions, but I don't think they were very bad.

I would have overcalled 1, I think we need to test if we have a big fit in spades. I would have doubled 2 for takeout. I would not have doubled 5, because with a singleton trump, it looks too much like a huge diamond fit, and doubling is like waiving a flag that hearts are off side. I would not have lead a trump. I have only one of them, so I can't lead another later. And a trump lead might pickle partner's holding that might give an overruff if declarer misjudges.
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#25 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-March-03, 10:01

 jogs, on 2014-March-03, 09:17, said:

J, overtake with Q. Heart back. Are you claiming you would play the A without a double? The double alerted declarer that the major suit kings were off.

No. I am saying that West's failure to raise Clubs and his Double of 5D would probably alert a normally sleepy Declarer that he should:

1) rise the ACE of hearts.
2) Not even worry about tapping himself by totally eliminating clubs.
3) Draw two trumps, then ruff a club.
4) exit with the heart Queen and let West donate the 11th trick.

I don't know whether I would find this line unless the opponents drew me a picture AND woke me up; West drew declarer a picture and woke him up.

This is a consequence of West taking those actions. Others have concluded he shouldn't have, and I don't need to pile onto that.
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#26 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2014-March-03, 10:23

 aguahombre, on 2014-March-02, 21:27, said:

Rainer is correct. The contract is cold on any lead. It is not double dummy; it is the only possible line ---made more comfortable by West not being able to raise Clubs, yet doubling.

Is it the only possible line (stepping up with A, strip minor suits partially, throw W in with a heart)? I would think that playing E for K is a reasonable alternative. Without the double, of course.
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#27 User is offline   mfa1010 

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Posted 2014-March-03, 10:32

Probably more annoying for west would be to establish the 5th heart through brute force. That would demonstrate that his hearts are too weak for his double. ;)
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#28 User is offline   beowulf 

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Posted 2014-March-03, 11:54

I'm entirely in agreement with the non-doublers. I think doubling voluntarily bid games, especially minor suit games, is bad bridge unless you have some real surprise for declarer. Even then it may be a bad idea if your double gives up the surprise element.

 Jinksy, on 2014-March-03, 07:42, said:

If anything, it means they’ll probably be pushier in game hunting than weaker players. The odds favour bidding it when vul when it’s about 35%, so if they’re a minimum, which both my partner’s overcall and their sequence suggests they are, the a priori odds before I even look at my hand are that it’s not making.

The probability of success required for bidding a vulnerable game, assuming that the result is either making or down one undoubled is 37.5% (i.e. 3/8) not 35%. But in reality, it's a little more complex than that.

Let's assume that your opposite number at the other table is faced with the exact same decision that you are but does not double. And for now, let's assume that if you do double you won't actually help declarer make his contract. So, if you double and they are down 1, you will gain 3 imps. If you're wrong and they make, you will lose 4 imps. Those are the two most likely outcomes and you need to be 57% sure of being right to gain in the long run.

But there are actually some more bad things (and good things) that can happen. If they go down 2 you will win 7 imps over your more timid opponent. That's nice. However, if they make an overtrick, you will lose 8 imps. What if they redouble? Maybe one or other of the opponents at your table was conscious of having underbid earlier (perhaps not so likely here) and is regretting that he didn't try for 6. 5DXX+1 will cost you 13 imps.

And it could be worse. If they are making an overtrick and your teammates are actually in 6D making, you were slated to win 13 by going quietly. But now, if they do redouble, you are going to lose an imp, for a swing of 14! Even if they neglect to redouble, you're still turning 13 into 9 (a net loss of 4).
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#29 User is offline   mfa1010 

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Posted 2014-March-03, 12:06

Worst case is if they guess the layout and make a game they would otherwise have gone down in.
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#30 User is offline   HighLow21 

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Posted 2014-March-03, 12:24

 mfa1010, on 2014-March-03, 12:06, said:

Worst case is if they guess the layout and make a game they would otherwise have gone down in.

Probability=1%. Unless you lead a trump of course.
There is a big difference between a good decision and a good result. Let's keep our posts about good decisions rather than "gotcha" results!
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#31 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2014-March-03, 12:27

 helene_t, on 2014-March-03, 10:23, said:

Is it the only possible line (stepping up with A, strip minor suits partially, throw W in with a heart)? I would think that playing E for K is a reasonable alternative. Without the double, of course.

Playing A doesn't preclude playing East for K. We can play A, K, A, heart towards dummy. That line is 100% unless trumps are 3-0, and we're still well placed when West has three trumps.

It's almost impossible for East to have three trumps and K. That would give West at least K98xxxx Jxxx - Jx, which is worth a preemptive overcall even if you're Fluffy's partner.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#32 User is offline   gab7nt 

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Posted 2014-March-03, 17:40

West should have bid 2S over 2D. By passing then, he made his bed. He did not involve partner and has zero right to double 5D. Passing 2D was a bigger error than doubling 5D.
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#33 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2014-March-03, 20:12

 aguahombre, on 2014-March-03, 10:01, said:

3) Draw two trumps, then rough a club.


Poor old club :(

 HighLow21, on 2014-March-03, 12:24, said:

Probability=1%. Unless you lead a trump of course.


Haven't enough people said that it is entirely possible that they would go wrong without the double? You have behaved well of late. Don't spoil it.
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#34 User is offline   jgillispie 

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Posted 2014-March-03, 21:03

 jogs, on 2014-March-02, 14:49, said:

Would you like to tell the entire story? What was the result? 5X=????

Shouldn't it go down one? J, overtake with Q. Return the singleton heart.
Would South find a double dummy line to make this hand? Next time don't double.


IMHO, if this is how the defense starts, then declarer needs to hope that E has 7 clubs and construct an endplay on W. This appears to be the best chance to make 5D after this defense.
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#35 User is offline   mfa1010 

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Posted 2014-March-04, 03:53

 jgillispie, on 2014-March-03, 21:03, said:

IMHO, if this is how the defense starts, then declarer needs to hope that E has 7 clubs and construct an endplay on W. This appears to be the best chance to make 5D after this defense.


If trumps are 2-1/1-2, then declarer is 100% to get a second heart trick by leading the 7 up to QT8x later, ruffing out their stoppers.
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#36 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2014-March-04, 06:51

I don’t understand bidding 2S. What’s it supposed to achieve?

I don’t want to compete to 4S over 4H
I don’t want to compete to 5S over 5D
My CJx doesn’t guarantee 3 level safety if they start doubling
If they play in Ds or Hs I’ll be on lead
If it’s the killer lead for 3N, I’d hope P will find it anyway – but if they bid to 3N I’ll very likely X it for a H lead anyway
The "4 is a transfer to 4" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
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#37 User is offline   dake50 

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Posted 2014-March-04, 07:55

I don’t understand bidding 2S. What’s it supposed to achieve?
..I don’t want to compete to 4S over 4H
I don’t want to compete to 5S over 5D
My CJx doesn’t guarantee 3 level safety if they start doubling
If they play in Ds or Hs I’ll be on lead
If it’s the killer lead for 3N, I’d hope P will find it anyway – but if they bid to 3N I’ll very likely X it for a H lead anyway -- Jinksy

*** And my assets are HKJxxx in opponents bid suit +CJ +SK??
What AN I HOPING FOR?
Further what do I want 2S in the future on bigger/useful hands to mean?
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#38 User is offline   gab7nt 

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Posted 2014-March-04, 13:03

 Jinksy, on 2014-March-04, 06:51, said:

I don’t understand bidding 2S. What’s it supposed to achieve?

I don’t want to compete to 4S over 4H
I don’t want to compete to 5S over 5D
My CJx doesn’t guarantee 3 level safety if they start doubling
If they play in Ds or Hs I’ll be on lead
If it’s the killer lead for 3N, I’d hope P will find it anyway – but if they bid to 3N I’ll very likely X it for a H lead anyway


At the point RHO bids 2D why on earth would you be thinking about competing with 4s over 4H or 5S over 5D? What gives you the impression the opponents have game? What gives you the impression it is opponents hand rather than ours? Why do you think it's OK to mastermind the auction? How about doing it the right way: Describe your hand and COOPERATE with partner and TOGETHER decide on the right way to procede.
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#39 User is offline   gab7nt 

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Posted 2014-March-04, 13:10

 dake50, on 2014-March-04, 07:55, said:

I don’t understand bidding 2S. What’s it supposed to achieve?
..I don’t want to compete to 4S over 4H
I don’t want to compete to 5S over 5D
My CJx doesn’t guarantee 3 level safety if they start doubling
If they play in Ds or Hs I’ll be on lead
If it’s the killer lead for 3N, I’d hope P will find it anyway – but if they bid to 3N I’ll very likely X it for a H lead anyway -- Jinksy

*** And my assets are HKJxxx in opponents bid suit +CJ +SK??
What AN I HOPING FOR?
Further what do I want 2S in the future on bigger/useful hands to mean?


You have forgotten the early part of the auction: namely you did not overcall 1S, you passed. Therefore, 2S here cannot be a great hand with spades... if so why did you not overcall initially? 2S here clearly shows a hand that wants to compete in clubs but with an added feature: a semi decent five-card spade suit.
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#40 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2014-March-04, 17:08

I agree it shows both of those things. I don't agree that I have either of them.
The "4 is a transfer to 4" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
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