[eagles123]

baffled by suggestion to open it 2S

[mike777]

eagles123, on 2014-March-12, 17:33, said:

baffled by suggestion to open it 2S

2s has its risks granted and I can understand pass. For me too weak to open 1s but passing creates its own problems to be able to show this hand if you don't play unlimited splinters by a passed hand. For example I simply cannot hold many of the example hands in the above posts if I pass and I can never hold close to this hand if I splinter.

IF I open 2s I may or may not be able to bid hearts later hence the risk.

[cherdano]

MrAce, on 2014-March-12, 02:53, said:

I will not write the 2nd time. Read above.

Sorry I had missed the 2nd part of your post.

But I just don't agree with the premise. 4♥ is last train, I can't imagine playing it as anything else. Partner will bid on with a maximum splinter, and not bid on with a minimum splinter. I don't want to be in slam opposite a minimum splinter! As a passed hand, I would certainly splinter with ♠AK-5th, a diamond singleton, and a little excuse in a side suit.
How are you going to miss slam with 4♥? You need one keycard and two kings, or two keycard and a king, or extra shape from partner. He won't bid 4♠ as a passed hand with that!

[MrAce]

cherdano, on 2014-March-12, 17:56, said:

Sorry I had missed the 2nd part of your post.

But I just don't agree with the premise. 4♥ is last train, I can't imagine playing it as anything else. Partner will bid on with a maximum splinter, and not bid on with a minimum splinter. I don't want to be in slam opposite a minimum splinter! As a passed hand, I would certainly splinter with ♠AK-5th, a diamond singleton, and a little excuse in a side suit.
How are you going to miss slam with 4♥? You need one keycard and two kings, or two keycard and a king, or extra shape from partner. He won't bid 4♠ as a passed hand with that!

How will you use this in this hand and use it in another hand where you want to bid slam unless your side is giving 2 club tricks and you want to investigate it ? ( I already gave an example in my previous reply) Lets say for the sake of argument that you gave away this ability, or you have your own pet toy to solve it in another way...

How does last train help you in this hand ? You say he will bid on with max splinter hand and not with a minimum splinter and made a definition of your own about max splinter hands.


AKJxx xxx void Qxxxx is that good enough to be a max for a passed hand, 2 keycards + void + 5th trump + extra shape, all you asked for, you wanna be in slam with this, most would open this but i am making a point.Trash out the ♠ J or ♣ Q if u want to. Ironic as it is, you have more chances to make this slam if you avoid a♥ lead And it is not the best way to avoid a lead by using artificial relay bids or cues on that suit at high level, allowing them to double. Or vice versa, maybe pd holds KQxx ♥ and empty clubs and lack of dbl of 4♥ will lead to finding the best lead..

KJxx xxxx x KQxx while you don't want to be in slam with this. Only 1 keycard , no void and only 1 king and minimum splinter ( i hope you do not consider 5314 as extra shape and 9 hcp a max splinter, throw out the ♠ J if you want to still better slam than the one above)

JTxxx KQxxx void KQx here is 2 kings + extra shape + extra trump + max splinter, he would open with this but i am making a point only.

You ain't going nowhere further than i can with this last train. There are basically hands where slam is good and where it is bad. You can learn this by coincidence this hand and fail on another one or vice versa. You are basically working for opponents after 4♦. Sorry but it is how i see it.

[mikeh]

As earlier posts pointed out, before the thread was side-tracked with silly ideas about a weak 2♠ and then a lot of discussion about how to proceed after a splinter, a fit-jump by South has be a better start, and there is no bridge logic, of which I am aware, that suggests any better usage for the call by a passed hand. It can't be a hand trying to play in hearts, since that hand either pre-empts originally, or bids a non-forcing, fit denying 2♥.

On this hand, N's diamonds are such that the splinter, which should always be assumed to be a stiff rather than a void, is pretty good, but the weak trumps cause concern since the usual defence to a slam bid after a splinter is a trump lead, and now Axxx opposite x is a potential issue.

Keycard won't actually solve the problem, which is no surprise to anyone who understands keycard.

Kxxx KQxx x QJxx isn't a good slam. AJxx KQxx x Jxxx is a good slam. Tell me how keycard deals with this. If you say the 2nd hand is an opener, subtract the club J.

If we splinter, then N should make a noise if system allows....LTTC 4♥ makes sense and in the context of LTTC, one needn't expect a signoff 99% of the time. That is silly. N's use of LTTC says 'I have interest in slam opposite a useful hand...do you have one?'

S has one.

Personally, I would love to be able to bid 4N as S here, but am afraid that the keycard madness so prevalent in BBF would have people asking how I could suggest S ask for keycards! It should be impossible for S to ask for keycards.....how the heck can he have a hand that, over LTTC, can place the contract simply by asking for keycards???? In the meantime, consider how useful it would be to have 4N deny a club control while suggesting interest in slam.

Back in the mundane world where posters refuse to bid slams without asking for keycards, S can bid 5 diamonds over 4♥.

Getting back to fit-jumps, N gets to cue over 3♥, hears 4♦, and basically drives to slam (and I have no argument now with N keycarding, since he has knowledge of at least 9 major suit cards across the table, with all values in the majors.

[mike777]

Given I once again bid rkc ...this time exclusion I note other options:




1) 3h fit jump by passed hand not something else
2) unlimited splinters by passed hand
3) Last train to Clarksville ( the first very first of great songs by you know who....)( my first album I bought with my hard earned money) I am old.( I think I bought cream and white album at same time so give me a break)
4) Cuebids above game level or above rkc level.

[MrAce]

mikeh, on 2014-March-12, 19:28, said:

Keycard won't actually solve the problem, which is no surprise to anyone who understands keycard.

Kxxx KQxx x QJxx isn't a good slam. AJxx KQxx x Jxxx is a good slam. Tell me how keycard deals with this. If you say the 2nd hand is an opener, subtract the club J.

If we splinter, then N should make a noise if system allows....LTTC 4♥ makes sense and in the context of LTTC, one needn't expect a signoff 99% of the time. That is silly. N's use of LTTC says 'I have interest in slam opposite a useful hand...do you have one?'

S has one.

Personally, I would love to be able to bid 4N as S here, but am afraid that the keycard madness so prevalent in BBF would have people asking how I could suggest S ask for keycards! It should be impossible for S to ask for keycards.....how the heck can he have a hand that, over LTTC, can place the contract simply by asking for keycards???? In the meantime, consider how useful it would be to have 4N deny a club control while suggesting interest in slam.

I never claimed keycard will solve whether the slam will be a good one or not. Asking keycards prevents me to play a slam when 2 keycard or more missing, simple as it is.. I said after 4♦ it is better to decide about slam, instead of making bids which seems to have different meanings and different continuation for each of 4♥ bidders, even when seeing both hands..and helps this hand but not in another.

It is interesting that people tend to use bids which they don't know the continuation of it, even when they see both hands, and call it "auto" ! let alone understanding it and taking the right action looking at a single hand. Some of 4♥ bidders admitted that in their reply. Some of them are not even sure whether their own 4♥ bid is last train or control cue. At least i have sympathy to those who said they will stop in 4♠ after last train is rejected. So the last trainers divided into groups here also, some of them passed 4♠, some of them suggested to show their 2 outside controls, some of them showing their lack of club control and some of them using 4 NT rkcb anyway after last train rejected.(not MikeH)

It is hard for me to understand the argument which says" i have a slam interest, do you have extras ?" and then say "S has one" and then skip the hands where S has extras but slam is awful, some of them are lacking 2 keycards, or vice versa. It is also hard for me to understand when you suggest 4♥ and then 4 NT shows a slam interest w/o a club stopper and skip the hands where your pd does not bid 4♠ but something else and find yourself at 5-6 level not knowing how many keycards our side missing.

Of course all goes well in forum, especially cuebidding your way to slams / grandslams. Change ♠ K to ♣ K and i am sure everyone would see S hand as bad in forum Jxxxx KQxxx void KJx and will stop before slam, but unfortunately i can also change the last train hand to make stopping look bad. I am not against cues or last train, i just believe the help of last train in this hand is coincidental.

[lexlogan]

eagles123, on 2014-March-11, 07:55, said:

[hv=pc=n&s=skj9832hk9754dcj8&n=sqt654hajda986ca6&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=pp(thoughts%3F)p1sp4dp4sppp]266|200[/hv
Form of scoring: MP
system: 4 card majors weak NT
any blame here?
thanks,
Eagles

South's spades are not so great I'd want to open 2S, and lacking an Ace I don't care much for 1S, so pass looks right.
A fit jump saves some bidding room but the splinter should've got North interested; 4H, willing to accept a 4S signoff, is reasonable. The fact we have three diamond losers to cover -- to much to ruff out opposite only four trumps -- in effect leaves North with five losers. Partner is sure to have a key card so I don't see 4NT as the answer. (At our club, far too many players would bid 4NT and stop when South shows only one key card.) Over 4H, South loves his hand but needs a club control, so 5D showing the void looks right, and North bids the slam.

[cherdano]

Timo, I am getting lost here. I hope you agree that slam is more likely to make opposite a splinter with extras, than opposite splinter without.
So the only thing we should be discussing whether slam odds are good opposite a splinter without extras. I would claim no! You would claim yes! That's a reasonable debate to have. But the fact that some splinters with extras still don't make slam is pretty irrelevant.

[MrAce]

cherdano, on 2014-March-13, 11:30, said:

Timo, I am getting lost here. I hope you agree that slam is more likely to make opposite a splinter with extras, than opposite splinter without.
So the only thing we should be discussing whether slam odds are good opposite a splinter without extras. I would claim no! You would claim yes! That's a reasonable debate to have. But the fact that some splinters with extras still don't make slam is pretty irrelevant.

I believe more than just "some max splinters" don't make and more than "just some min " splinters make. Rightly or wrongly, this is why i debated.

But you or no one else, (except MikeH and his very uncommon treatment tried a bit) still did not tell me how would you bid these hands or similar ones, while sticking to LT on OP hand. You even said "i can not even imagine a hand where 4♥ can be anything but LT. Which is where i get lost as well as getting lost with the suggestions of how to continue over LT, even if i agreed to that.

1- KQT9x A AKxx xxx vs Axxx KQJx void xxxxx or Axxx KQJx x xxxx


2-KQTxx A AKxx xxx vs xxxxx KQxx x Axxx


On hand 1 you do not even want to be at 5 level while i hope you want to be in slam on 2nd.

I don't know, perhaps i am not very good with the LT concept and its continuations and i am over worried about the slow continuation bids of an ambiguous bid and/or giving too much info believing that the merit of using LT in this hand is over rated. Especially if the understanding and efficient usage of it vary a lot (read below)

Quote

It is interesting that people tend to use bids which they don't know the continuation of it, even when they see both hands, and call it "auto" ! ....... Some of 4♥ bidders admitted that in their reply. Some of them are not even sure whether their own 4♥ bid is last train or control cue. ......... So the last trainers divided into groups here also, some of them passed 4♠, some of them suggested to show their 2 outside controls, some of them showing their lack of club control and some of them using 4 NT rkcb anyway after last train rejected.(not MikeH)