[eagles123]

These hands came up in a teaching session teacher recommended one thing and I felt something else was kinda clear. interested in opinions

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form of scoring: MP

E/W play 4 card majors, will open the major with 4M4m32

thanks,

Eagles

[whereagles]

text book 1♠

[jallerton]

If we pass, at least two bad things can happen.

1. They might well make it, especially when we lack entries to get in and draw trumps.
2. LHO might run to 1NT or 2m. Then we have to decide whether to bid 2♠ on the next round and/or stick partner's double of the runout.

[MrAce]

I would pass at IMPs w/o thinking much. You can win a lot of imps and 1♥ doubled making is hardly a bad score. They are red and we are unlikely to make game.

At MP, it is close imo, but I would go with the state of session. If I believe we are in decent shape then I would not risk to get a bottom, even though it is unlikely that they will make.

Spots matter and possibility that opener can have only 4♥ matters as well.

[Wackojack]

1♠. Defending 1♥x you need to make 7 tricks. The 4-4 ♠fit will very likely make more tricks than the likely 6-1 heart fit. And what if partner has a heart void?

[MrAce]

Wackojack, on 2014-April-25, 17:16, said:

1♠. Defending 1♥x you need to make 7 tricks. The 4-4 ♠fit will very likely make more tricks than the likely 6-1 heart fit. And what if partner has a heart void?

What if your pd has no 4 card spades with a t/o shape 3145? What if your pd has a double and then bid 2♣ hand? What if you pd has a dbl and then bid 2♦ hand? What if your pd has a dbl and then bid NT hand?

As I said it may be close at MP due to obvious reasons. Perhaps 1♠ better. However at IMPs, I would never turn back the opportunity to collect big numbers with the risk of letting them making 1♥ doubled.

Lets assume for the sake of argument that pd has AKQx ♠ and out, AKQx x xxxx xxxx. You still can defeat 1♥ decent amount of time. They can score 3 minor tricks and 3 heart tricks if things go normal. I am aware that this is a very optimistic way to look at it, but I was extremely pessimistic when I gave pd only AKQx and out, all his hcps in our suit, which is a hopeless hand in defense.

[the hog]

1S. This hand is certainly not good enough to pass 1H. You might consider passing at MPs if you need a top. Imps? Never!

[nige1]

eagles123, on 2014-April-25, 06:20, said:

These hands came up in a teaching session teacher recommended one thing and I felt something else was kinda clear. interested in opinions

form of scoring: MP

E/W play 4 card majors, will open the major with 4M4m32

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IMO Pass = 10, 1♠ = 8, 1N = 6. Assuming they open 4 card majors,
But 1♠ = 10, Pass = 9, If 1♥ promises 5

[Lord Molyb]

IMO Pass = 10, 1♠ = 8, 1NT = 2

[Trinidad]

Clear 1♠. To compare Pass and 1♠.
If you pass, effectively you are declaring 1♥, without the advantage to control a dummy. You are playing in a 6-1 fit with a known bad trump break.
If you bid 1♠ you probably have an 8 card fit, control over the dummy and no reason to assume a bad trump split.

If you look at it like that this is a no-brainer.

Rik

[jallerton]

MrAce, on 2014-April-25, 17:52, said:

Lets assume for the sake of argument that pd has AKQx ♠ and out, AKQx x xxxx xxxx. You still can defeat 1♥ decent amount of time. They can score 3 minor tricks and 3 heart tricks if things go normal. I am aware that this is a very optimistic way to look at it, but I was extremely pessimistic when I gave pd only AKQx and out, all his hcps in our suit, which is a hopeless hand in defense.

Er, no. If partner holds that hand then Opener (assuming he holds ♥AKJxx) will make 5 heart tricks (think how the play might go). If he has 3 minor suit winners as well that's -360 which could easily be 10IMPs away.

[MrAce]

jallerton, on 2014-April-26, 02:33, said:

Er, no. If partner holds that hand then Opener (assuming he holds ♥AKJxx) will make 5 heart tricks (think how the play might go). If he has 3 minor suit winners as well that's -360 which could easily be 10IMPs away.

Why does he have to have 5 card hearts when OP said they open 4 card majors and they open all 4M+4m hands with major ? But i see your point. Perhaps I should have used better words than "decent amount of time" I am aware they can make 1♥ even with AKJx vs that weak hand pd may hold in a fantasy world. Merely was trying to make a point that this hand vs a pd with normal t/o double, it is not hard to defeat 1♥

[eagles123]

Well on this the teacher was right! I have no qualms in admitting that as he is a very good player

The reason I thought pass is because of the colours: if p has a monster hand we'll get a better score defending and if p has a moderate type of hand, then it's probably a 1s/1h contract anyway

I can't remember the exact opp hands, but defending hearts was best on this deal (but i accept that was probably just luck)

[broze]

eagles123, on 2014-April-26, 09:19, said:

I can't remember the exact opp hands, but defending hearts was best on this deal (but i accept that was probably just luck)

Would you have actually got to defend 1Hx though or can the opps escape?

The reason I think 1♠ is totally clear is that even if defending 1Hx is best, most of the time LHO is going to redouble for rescue or pull to his second suit and even if he does sit for 1Hx you are not at all guaranteed to get it off. After you pass if the auction continues (2C)-P-(P)- what are you going to bid? You might be missing a 4-4 ♠ fit but bidding spades now seems to overvalue your hand somewhat.

Bidding 1S now is just going to lead to a much better auction.

[eagles123]

broze, on 2014-April-26, 09:27, said:

Would you have actually got to defend 1Hx though or can the opps escape?

The reason I think 1♠ is totally clear is that most of the time LHO is going to redouble for rescue or pull to his second suit and even if he does sit for 1Hx you are not at all guaranteed to get it off. After you pass if the auction continues (2C)-P-(P)- what are you going to bid? You might be missing a 4-4 ♠ fit but bidding spades now seems to overvalue your hand somewhat.

Bidding 1S now is just going to lead to a much better auction.

well yeah, I can't remember the exact hands but lho had a 3-4-2-4 19 count or something so should/could have bid 1NT

so you make a very good point.

Thanks,

Eagles

[MrAce]

eagles123, on 2014-April-26, 09:19, said:

I can't remember the exact opp hands, but defending hearts was best on this deal (but i accept that was probably just luck)

I am usually a lucky guy

[whereagles]

In SJSimon's book a similar hand comes up.

Player decides to pass (he even has a stronger hand) and opener does in fact come up with a 4-card heart.

The unlucky expert played conservatively, having come up with only one overtrick.

[Zelandakh]

eagles123, on 2014-April-26, 09:19, said:

Well on this the teacher was right! I have no qualms in admitting that as he is a very good player

Out of interest eagles, is your teacher from the BBO Acol Club? Or perhaps someone from your face to face bridge club?