[steve2005]

It's not surprising in a weak field 10-12 had good results. Nobody at that level discusses bidding over this.

I often play weak NT 12-14 in all position, and have same thing happen. people bid when they shouldn't and pass when they shouldn't. they haven't discussed a style

[Cthulhu D]

How do you not discuss this, or atleast have a general agreement?

I mean, I am pretty bad, and we've got a defence worked out (OK we just play the same defence regardless of your NT range but Multi Landy is fine), but we have discussed that over stronger NTs we are playing disruptive overcalls and as the NT gets weaker our overcalls have to get more constructive, and what a Pen X looks like.

[akwoo]

When you play less than 30 boards a year against opponents using a non 15-17 NT (which means it comes up maybe 5 times a year at most) and you have enough trouble remembering all your usual agreements, it's not worth it. (For someone around here who only plays a tournament when it's local, that's about the right frequency.)

[mycroft]

I agree with most that say that in 4th seat, especially playing Precision, I'd want a real hand. 11-13, when partner doesn't have (a good) 10 or a long major, and both opponents won't open (even in third)? I'm not sure I want to preempt my opponents into sitting for a great score. If your room is full of pairs who "ain't gonna let them weak NTers push us around", even when they see two green cards on their side already, though, go for it!

I have played 10-12 first 3 seats, 15-17 4th. I have played 10-12 1-3 NV, 14-16 4th and any VUL. I haven't played 11-13, but systemically it's sounder than 10-12 (you don't get that 13-16 BAL 1NT rebid you have to work out, or have to put 16BAL back into 1♣); however, the big benefit of a 10-12 was that you are taking away the entire 1 level on hands the field isn't opening. That's no longer very true; and with 11-13, it's not true at all. So there's that balancing act as well.

With any non-field NT range, you're playing swingy on the NT-vs-2M hands already throughout *both* ranges. To this, you're adding -200 for -2 or -1X vul in cases where the chance of it is pretty high (3rd vul, and all unfavourable). To that, you're also getting the "EHAA death result" of +200/210 (more commonly, +150 vs game or +170, but for symmetry :-).

But you're balancing that against "their weak NT will bite you occasionally. If you don't admit that, and just trade them for your plusses when it bites them, you're going to bite yourself more often than their bid did".

I don't know where to go.