[kgr]

If you have NT ranges 9-11, 12-14 and 15-17
When do you play what range (assume you play the same at MPs and IMPs)?

This is what my new partner suggests:
1st/2nd hand: NV: 9-11
1st/2nd hand: Both V: 12-14
1st/2nd hand: V vs NV: 15-17

3th hand: NV vs V: 12-14
3th hand: other: 15-17

4th hand: 12-14

I would go for:
1st/2nd/3th hand: NV: 9-11
1st/2nd/3th hand: Both V: 12-14
1st/2nd/3th hand: V vs NV: 15-17

4th hand: 12-14

another pair at our club:
1st/2nd/3th hand: NV: 9-11
1st/2nd/3th hand: V: 15-17

4th hand: 15-17

What do you think is best or would be your preference?

Do you think the mini-NT is more dangerous in 3th hand or more useful?
Note: With my new partner I play T-Walsh, but not after a 3th hand opener. In 3th hand he wants to have the possibility to open 1C and pass any response. Maybe that makes the mini-NT less needed in 3th hand.

[mgoetze]

 kgr, on 2015-April-06, 06:27, said:

4th hand: 12-14

If your partner denied having even 9 HCP balanced in 2nd seat, why would you now want to open with 12 HCP in 4th seat?

[kgr]

 mgoetze, on 2015-April-06, 06:53, said:

If your partner denied having even 9 HCP balanced in 2nd seat, why would you now want to open with 12 HCP in 4th seat?

This is only when NV; and partner can still have 9-11 non-balanced.
My partner actually proposed 13-15 for 4th hand 1NT. Do you think that is better and pass 12 HCP balanced?

[helene_t]

If you open balanced hands from 12 HCPs in 1st seat then a constructive 1NT opening in 3rd seat has to show at least 14 (yes I know this is a walrus argument but even so I think it is correct )

So if I were to play variable NT I would play
1st/2nd: always 12-14
3rd: 14-16 vul (system on), 0-13 nonvul (weak takeouts in four suits)
4th: 14-16

If you want to give up on the natural constructive 1NT opening in 1st/2nd nonvul in order to be able to preempt more, I would suggest playing in all seats regardless of vulnerability:
1NT=weak two in clubs or a hand which you would normaly open 2♣ with
2♣=some other preempt which you system doesn't cater to, for example both majors
This has the advantage of leaving one step more for the strong hands which is quite important since most systems with a strong artificial 2♣ overload that opening.

I don't like the idea of having a 1st/2nd seat suit opening deny different notrump ranges depending on vulnerability. Two different ranges is already too complicated except maybe for full-time prof system geeks like Brink/Drijver. Never mind three ranges. And the technical benefit of vulnerability-dependent ranges is very small imho.

[mgoetze]

 kgr, on 2015-April-06, 07:03, said:

This is only when NV; and partner can still have 9-11 non-balanced.
My partner actually proposed 13-15 for 4th hand 1NT. Do you think that is better and pass 12 HCP balanced?

I guess I just don't understand why you would want to open 9 balanced and pass 11 unbalanced.

Anyway I probably shouldn't get involved in this discussion. I'm pretty boring and play

1st-3rd: 14-16
4th: 15-17

[glen]

fun thread, thanks

assuming that when you open 1NT 15-17 or 12-14, you pass most 11s balanced

1st/2nd hand: NV 9-11
1st hand, 4th hand: V 12-14
2nd hand, 3rd hand: V 15-17
4th hand: NV 15-17 (this is interesting as in 4th you open weak notrump V, and strong notrump NV!)

3th hand: NV ?-14

?-14 means there is no lower range, it is just up to 14. Since 1NT is 9-11, there are no balanced invites opposite 12-14, so might as well open ?-14

Ideally, adding another range:
3rd hand: NV ?-15
4th hand: NV 13-15

[awm]

I suggest playing 15-17 (always) in 4th chair. A few reasons for this:

1. In terms of frequency, the stronger ranges are actually more common in 4th once you condition on three passes in front of you.
2. Many of the advantages of weaker ranges are preemption, but with both opponents passing this is much less valuable.
3. You will (almost) never have values to invite opposite 12-14 (or even 14-16), meaning you will miss quite a few major-suit fits.

[kgr]

 glen, on 2015-April-06, 08:55, said:

4th hand: NV 15-17 (this is interesting as in 4th you open weak notrump V, and strong notrump NV!)

Why is this best in your opinion?

 awm, on 2015-April-06, 09:27, said:

I suggest playing 15-17 (always) in 4th chair. A few reasons for this:

1. In terms of frequency, the stronger ranges are actually more common in 4th once you condition on three passes in front of you.
2. Many of the advantages of weaker ranges are preemption, but with both opponents passing this is much less valuable.
3. You will (almost) never have values to invite opposite 12-14 (or even 14-16), meaning you will miss quite a few major-suit fits.

I'm not sure about the preemption. If you are 12-14 balanced in 4th hand then 1NT is probably a good preemptive bid?

[awm]

Why are you preempting in 4th? With both opponents passing, the odds that its your hand are very high. If opponents are fairly flat you will probably have the auction to yourself even if you open 1m (so why preempt your own fits?) If LHO has shape, you *might* shut him out or get a penalty by opening 1nt, but at least as likely is that his overcall buys it and you fail to find your 3m contract because you opened 1nt and not 1m.

[perko90]

 awm, on 2015-April-06, 09:27, said:

I suggest playing 15-17 (always) in 4th chair. A few reasons for this:

1. In terms of frequency, the stronger ranges are actually more common in 4th once you condition on three passes in front of you.
2. Many of the advantages of weaker ranges are preemption, but with both opponents passing this is much less valuable.
3. You will (almost) never have values to invite opposite 12-14 (or even 14-16), meaning you will miss quite a few major-suit fits.

Agree with above. For as much as I love weak NT, it loses its luster in 4th seat.

[The Pud]

1st NV: 9-11
3rd NV: 9-14
Else 14-16

Is what I play

I wouldn't play a mini in 2nd for the main reason that you're equally likley to be pre-empting partner as you are LHO, whereas in 1st you 2-1 more likely to be pre-empting oppos than partner.
Obviously when you're in 3rd anything goes - hence 9-14

[rhm]

 The Pud, on 2015-April-09, 12:40, said:

1st NV: 9-11
3rd NV: 9-14
Else 14-16

Is what I play

I wouldn't play a mini in 2nd for the main reason that you're equally likley to be pre-empting partner as you are LHO, whereas in 1st you 2-1 more likely to be pre-empting oppos than partner.
Obviously when you're in 3rd anything goes - hence 9-14

Opening 1NT (any range) always risks missing a 4-4 major suit fit when responder is not strong enough to invite game.
The only time you risk that with a mini notrump in second position is when partner has a minimum opening bid.(If he is any weaker you would not have been in the bidding)
Apart from that why are you preempting partner, when you give a good description of your hand at the one level with regard to strength and distribution?

Rainer Herrmann