[Liversidge]

Another tricky hand from last night:
My LHO opened 1♣.

---

We play Weak No Trump and play Stayman over a 1NT overcall, which shows a balanced hand.
If partner doubles and I bid 2♠, I think a rebid of 2NT by partner shows a much stronger hand - 19-20 HCP.
How should the bidding go?

[helene_t]

If north doubles you bid 1S not 2. 1S is 0-8 points while 2S is 9-11. But you are right, North has a problem then.

Therefore north doesn't double but bids 1nt. A stiff ace is similar to a doubleton and there is no alternative to 1nt.

A 1nt overcall shows 15-18 or such. Whether your 1nt opening is weak or strong is a different issue - 1nt overcalls are always strong, regardless of system.

[dicklont]

I also play a 12-14 1NT opening, but our 1NT overcall is 15-17 to avoid trouble.
So this hand is a normal 1NT overcall for me.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

you have 2 options.

Either overcall 1NT showing a bal. 15-18, or pass.

The 1NT overcall is most likely your better choice, although similar as the T/O,
it paints a wrong picture about spade length.
The T/O promises 3+, the 1NT promises 2+, and due to this you may end up playing
in problematic spade contract with insufficent trumps, after the T/O at the 1 level
possibly a 4-1 fit, after the 1NT overcall at the 2 level in a 5-1 fit.

Pass will avoid those spade contracts, but risks that the opponents will play 1C,
when your side has game.
If your partner reopens agressive, the risk of playing 1C is dimished, due to your
club length.

You have to decide, what feels most comfortable to you, even if it is not the best
option, choosing something superior but feeling unwell about it is a lot worse.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[keithhus]

Is not the decision to overcall 1NT predicated on knowing what Souths hand is? I know it gives a point count but so does Double and it does not mislead on shape. With respect, I would feel much more comfortable with a double by N , followed by 1NT after having received a 1S response. Same ending but much safer?

[helene_t]

Double misdescribes our shape more than 1NT does. This is because partner will assume at least 3-card spades when we double but only assume 2 when we bid 1NT.

It is true that rebidding 1NT after the double cancels that meaning, but that just says that we were too strong for an initial 1NT overcall. It has exactly the same shape restrictions.

So if you think the North hand is best described as a balanced hand with a club stopper, then you either pass (0-14/15), bid 1NT (15/16-17/19) or dbl followed by 1NT (18/20-20/22) depending on how you evaluate the strength of the North hand and what your exact range for a 1NT overcall is.

[NickRW]

 keithhus, on 2015-April-10, 04:05, said:

Is not the decision to overcall 1NT predicated on knowing what Souths hand is? I know it gives a point count but so does Double and it does not mislead on shape. With respect, I would feel much more comfortable with a double by N , followed by 1NT after having received a 1S response. Same ending but much safer?

No. Minimum NT rebid after a take out double shows more than your normal NT overcall. About 19hcp. Partner may well play you for that and hang you with a doomed game call.

[dicklont]

 keithhus, on 2015-April-10, 04:05, said:

Is not the decision to overcall 1NT predicated on knowing what Souths hand is? I know it gives a point count but so does Double and it does not mislead on shape. With respect, I would feel much more comfortable with a double by N , followed by 1NT after having received a 1S response. Same ending but much safer?

When you do that it shows a 18-19(20) NT hand; too strong for a 1NT overcall.
You still don't have the promised shape but now you also show the wrong point-count.
With imperfect hands try to tell the smallest lie.

[TylerE]

There's a lot of value in being able to PASS the North hand in tempo. The auction isn't ending in 1♣, so you can show values later if it's called for... but a lot of the time LHO will end up bidding 1♥ or something juicy like that.

[neilkaz]

 helene_t, on 2015-April-10, 01:20, said:

If north doubles you bid 1S not 2. 1S is 0-8 points while 2S is 9-11. But you are right, North has a problem then.

Therefore north doesn't double but bids 1nt. A stiff ace is similar to a doubleton and there is no alternative to 1nt.

A 1nt overcall shows 15-18 or such. Whether your 1nt opening is weak or strong is a different issue - 1nt overcalls are always strong, regardless of system.

You took the words right out of my mouth .

In general I get better results bidding ASAP with hands like this than I do by passing from my experience on BBO and live play.

[keithhus]

Thank you everyone for your responses.
I wasn't aware that a 1NT rebid after a double meant a specific (higher) point range and card holding I.e. 2/3 S. I need to explore further, particularly to understand the rationale. Txs again.

[kuhchung]

I would pass the north hand and hope to make a takeout double of spades later

Just to put it in perspective, even if you think a 1N overcall is clear (I don't), passing and hoping to double spades is a serious candidate move. If you were lighter and didn't have the values to overcall 1N, then it would be the only possible competitive move.

[wank]

yes just pass and double spades for take-out or 1nt for penalties.

[msjennifer]

With QJ109,xxx,Qxx,xxx,Then over partners take out double I shall bid 1S but with the given hand which ,even if only 5HCP ,has only 8losers and nothing wasted in clubs,My bid is not 1S but TWO spade which limits my hand to 8 losers exactly.After a take out dbl in 2nd position by partner it is the losing tricks count rather than mere HCP count since partner s hand is bound to be semi balanced or suit oriented or NT oriented( only if he has 18-19 HCP )which he can describe only by making a take out double first.His later rebids will tell the story.Of course I have forgotten the partners hand already described and bidding as if it was not known.

[fourdad]

 keithhus, on 2015-April-10, 04:05, said:

Is not the decision to overcall 1NT predicated on knowing what Souths hand is? I know it gives a point count but so does Double and it does not mislead on shape. With respect, I would feel much more comfortable with a double by N , followed by 1NT after having received a 1S response. Same ending but much safer?

I agree wholeheartedly. Way too many bidders ignore the proper shape as being just as important as points!

[manudude03]

I pass these hands. If you switch the spades and diamonds, I would overcall 1N as I'm not as afraid of a transfer.

[helene_t]

 keithhus, on 2015-April-10, 11:04, said:

Thank you everyone for your responses.
I wasn't aware that a 1NT rebid after a double meant a specific (higher) point range and card holding I.e. 2/3 S. I need to explore further, particularly to understand the rationale. Txs again.

The rationale is that you need a way to bid a 19-20 count without necessarily forcing to the 2-level. If dbl followed by 1NT didn't show this, it is not clear what you could do to show the strong hand.

This doesn't necessarily mean that you have to play it that way. There are alternatives. For example, reversing the fast and the slow 1NT, i.e. a direct 1NT is 17-20 and dbl followed by 1NT is 14-16, is arguably better. However, a double that can be a normal t/o double and also be a 14-16 notrump hand is awkward for partner if opponents compete. Partner can no longer trust that you have support for all three other suits.

Basically, I think, it has become standard to play dbl as "classic t/o OR too strong for an immediate action" because it is a simple principle, or maybe just by historic coincidence. You can chose different methods but you have to think carefully about the consequences it will have for how partner responds to your double.

[GrahamJson]

If the opening was 1S and your spades and clubs were reversed then a 1NT overcall would be ok, as it is unlikely that p would take you too high in clubs. As it is a 1NT over all makes it too likely you will end up in spades on a misfit. A to double is even worse as p will certainly assume some spade support. Pass is best. P should protect with any reasonable values.

Having said that, anything could turn out well, or badly.

[msjennifer]

 fourdad, on 2015-April-11, 04:45, said:

I agree wholeheartedly. Way too many bidders ignore the proper shape as being just as important as points!

Not at all safer. A TOD followed by 1Nt shows 18-19 balanced,since with 15 -17 you overcall 1NT playing SAYC

[jmcilkley]

 Liversidge, on 2015-April-10, 01:03, said:

Another tricky hand from last night:
My LHO opened 1♣.

---

We play Weak No Trump and play Stayman over a 1NT overcall, which shows a balanced hand.
If partner doubles and I bid 2♠, I think a rebid of 2NT by partner shows a much stronger hand - 19-20 HCP.
How should the bidding go?

Surely you wouldn't double with only 12-14 points? It is fine to open a weak NT when noone else has bid but once an opponent has opened the who;e ballgame has changed and bidding 1nt with only 12-14 is asking for a big penalty when doubled,
This is clearly a 1nt overcall so there is no problem with this hand.
You say that you plat Stayman over 1nt overcall - I presume you also play transfers, etc as weel. Just like over an opening 1nt but responses are with 3 points less to cater for the stronger overcalled 1nt.